Getrag Gurus. "Select" function centering ("bias") springs. (Page 1/2)
Raydar JUL 21, 05:47 PM
If you're still with me... thanks.

According to the Getrag manual, there are two springs that center the shift shaft in the "3-4" gate.
They are the "1-2 bias spring" and the "5-R bias spring".

My select function is a bear. It's so stiff that it's not even comfortable with an 84 shift handle. This is the only thing I don't like about the T-550.
I have a new Rodney select cable, and I have lubricated everything that even looks like it might make a difference.

The question is... Does anyone know if the Fiero Getrag 282 uses the same springs as the FWD Getrag (aka New Venture T-550)?
Has anyone ever researched a "not-so-stiff" spring package?


I recognize that this is probably way beyond what most people want to mess with, but I'm still hoping...

Thanks!
Patrick JUL 21, 06:32 PM

quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

My select function is a bear. It's so stiff that it's not even comfortable with an 84 shift handle.



Raydar, a lot of us with Getrags are only too familiar with the select function (left to right) getting stiff due to water entering in the upright tranny end of the select cable and corroding it... but you have a new cable. Where do you suspect the friction is actually taking place with your car?

My feeling is that a "not-so-stiff" spring package in the shifter wouldn't make a bit of difference. Keep in mind that no matter which way you're moving the shifter (left or right), one of those springs is actually helping you.

You could experiment by simply removing both springs so there's no spring tension at all... but I suspect the shifter would feel awful, and quickly finding the 3-4 gate might be a challenge.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-21-2018).]

Raydar JUL 21, 07:05 PM

quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Raydar, a lot of us with Getrags are only too familiar with the select function (left to right) getting stiff due to water entering in the upright tranny end of the select cable and corroding it... but you have a new cable. Where do you suspect the friction is actually taking place with your car?

My feeling is that a "not-so-stiff" spring package in the shifter wouldn't make a bit of difference. Keep in mind that no matter which way you're moving the shifter (left or right), one of those springs is actually helping you.

You could experiment by simply removing both springs so there's no spring tension at all... but I suspect the shifter would feel awful, and quickly finding the 3-4 gate might be a challenge.




I had thought about removing them, altogether. I also thought about replacing them with lighter springs, if they even exist. The worst that would happen is that I would have to undo whatever I did.
If I had some spare springs, I even thought about heating mine to relieve some of the tension. (Ghetto-fab, but whatever... Again, the worst that would happen is that I'd ruin the springs, and have to replace them.)

With that said, the 5-R spring looks like it can be replaced in a few minutes. (It's behind the little black cap, on the front underside of the trans.) But the 1-2 spring seems to require splitting the cases - unless someone knows differently.

This is really why I asked if anyone had any experience with this. Not that many Fiero owners have select issues that can't be solved with a cable replacement. Mine is still annoyingly stiff.
Patrick JUL 21, 07:18 PM

quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

With that said, the 5-R spring looks like it can be replaced in a few minutes. (It's behind the little black cap, on the front underside of the trans.) But the 1-2 spring seems to require splitting the cases - unless someone knows differently.



I'm feeling a bit stupid right now. I was thinking these springs were located in the shifter itself.
fieroguru JUL 21, 07:24 PM
Granted, it has been a long time (Nov 2009) since used one of these HTOB getrags, but I ran a used on in 2005 and upgraded to a rebuilt version in 2007 and don't remember any significant select stiffness. The high mile version is still sitting on the shelf for some reason... I am a packrat.

With the select cable still in the car, disconnect the end at the transmission and try to move the shifter to see if there is any resistance, there shouldn't be any.
Lubricating a cable is normally a bad idea as the lubrication adversely impacts the plastic liner and makes it sticky.
There is also a service bulletin that changed the factory routing of the select cable as the stock routing caused it to bind.

I would eliminate the cable as the cause before doing non-stock changes to the transmission.
Raydar JUL 21, 10:48 PM

quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Granted, it has been a long time (Nov 2009) since used one of these HTOB getrags, but I ran a used on in 2005 and upgraded to a rebuilt version in 2007 and don't remember any significant select stiffness.



Okay. Thanks.
That definitely answers one of my questions. And it makes sense. I wouldn't expect there to have been any real difference between the FWD and the Fiero versions of this trans.
Gives me another direction to pursue.


quote


With the select cable still in the car, disconnect the end at the transmission and try to move the shifter to see if there is any resistance, there shouldn't be any.
Lubricating a cable is normally a bad idea as the lubrication adversely impacts the plastic liner and makes it sticky.
There is also a service bulletin that changed the factory routing of the select cable as the stock routing caused it to bind.

I would eliminate the cable as the cause before doing non-stock changes to the transmission.



I have already pretty much done this. I can disconnect the cables at the trans, and the shifter pretty much just flops around. The cable doesn't seem to impart any resistance.
I have it routed as the charts would seem to indicate (as well as what just seems to make the most sense.) It exits the firewall, and routes around the left front corner of the engine compartment, around the outside of the exhaust downpipe. I'm not sure what the bulletin suggests, but I have tried to route it such that tight bends are kept to a minimum, and all approaches to a fixed point (brackets and shift levers) are approached with as little bend as possible, so as not to bind things up.

Maybe I just need to lube the shift/select shaft where it goes into the trans. Or elsewhere.

I'll mention that the only "abuse" this trans was ever subjected to was when the plug came out, shortly after it was installed. It ended up being driven about ten miles with nearly no lubrication.
As soon as I noticed that it was getting a bit noisy, I slowed down, and drove it very gingerly. The only lasting effect I've ever noticed was a bit of whine at certain speeds in 5th gear. This was seven years ago.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-21-2018).]

pmbrunelle JUL 21, 11:43 PM
When you say stiff, do you mean that there's stickiness, as in friction?

Or, do you mean stiff in the sense of lots of force is required to move the lever, but it's a smooth friction-free force?

Do you have another Getrag Fiero you can drive for comparison?
Raydar JUL 22, 12:02 AM

quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

When you say stiff, do you mean that there's stickiness, as in friction?

Or, do you mean stiff in the sense of lots of force is required to move the lever, but it's a smooth friction-free force?

Do you have another Getrag Fiero you can drive for comparison?



No stickiness. Just that a lot of force is required.
It occurs to me that this is why the Getrag shift lever is so tall that it looks like a club. Maybe GM decided that the Getrag had a bunch of "tension" that had to be overcome.
A stock Getrag shift lever may make things easier, but I'd hate to keep banging my knuckles on the ceiling, ever time I shift gears.

Edit - I've driven other Getrag Fieros. Don't remember them being this stiff. But then... it's been a while.
FWIW, my Isuzu is LOTS easier.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-22-2018).]

fieroguru JUL 22, 11:24 AM

quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
A stock Getrag shift lever may make things easier, but I'd hate to keep banging my knuckles on the ceiling, ever time I shift gears.



A shorter shifter will give you less leverage to overcome the springs, The stock shifter has a 9 1/4" lever arm for select functions. Reduce it 1" and you will see an 11% increase in effort, reduce it 3" and effort will increase 33%, so some balance is needed between a mouse and giraffe shifter height.

With the cable off the transmission end, is it hard to pull the shift lever in and out of the transmission case for the select function? You might take a tiny flat screw driver and pull the shaft seal away from the shaft and drip some oil into the shaft and try to get it to the shaft bushing inside the transmission.
Raydar JUL 22, 12:20 PM

quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

A shorter shifter will give you less leverage to overcome the springs, The stock shifter has a 9 1/4" lever arm for select functions. Reduce it 1" and you will see an 11% increase in effort, reduce it 3" and effort will increase 33%, so some balance is needed between a mouse and giraffe shifter height.

With the cable off the transmission end, is it hard to pull the shift lever in and out of the transmission case for the select function? You might take a tiny flat screw driver and pull the shaft seal away from the shaft and drip some oil into the shaft and try to get it to the shaft bushing inside the transmission.



Thanks! I understand the dynamics of short vs long shifters, and leverage, but I never thought about the percentages.

I'll try that, with the seal and bushing. Makes sense.
I guess I just figured that if the oil level in the trans was good, all the "vital bits" would be sufficiently lubricated.