85 Notchie Build (Page 8/23)
ericjon262 FEB 25, 05:19 PM
From what I have found, ballenger motorsports has the best combination of price and convenience. There's also EFI connection, and for bulk stuff like pins, Waytek wire, and Mouser.

https://www.bmotorsports.co...ex.php/cPath/109_484

I have a little more work to do on the header flanges, I'm probably going to submit a job to have a laser cut test piece later this week.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

Patrick FEB 25, 09:13 PM

quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

I appreciate NASIOC but I made a few threads on there, one in particular where I swapped my WRX engine and took lots of pictures and did it step by step... and all I got were replies where people were telling me I shouldn't check plug gap with feeler gauges . There was no community compared to here so I stopped posting as it felt like a waste of time. I did some cool stuff too...



That's a shame (their loss).... but yeah, I know what you mean. The Subaru platform was all brand new to me, so in my first year at NASIOC, I was asking for advice in regards to pulling the oil pan. I won't say who it was, but one of the members there who seems to have plenty of fanboys gave me incorrect information. If I had followed it, I would've spent untold extra hours under the STi for nothing. Fortunately, I suspected he was mistaken, so I did what actually needed to be done (and not all the extra unnecessary steps he had mentioned). However, I wanted to prevent some other unsuspecting newbie from following the incorrect advice he had given me, so I posted what I had done, complete with pictures... and to be clear, I was posting in a most respectful manner... just trying to be helpful in case anyone else new was wondering how to do this job. I was rather shocked when not only did the guy refuse to believe me, but several other NASIOC members also felt it necessary to comment that I was "crying" and "bitching" on the forum. Yeah, it kind of soured me a bit on NASIOC for awhile... but fortunately, 22 years here at PFF (including time wasted in O/T) has toughened my hide.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-25-2021).]

zkhennings FEB 25, 10:16 PM
Thanks ericjon I will have to check that out, and those exhaust ports have a very interesting shape

And yes it is that attitude that made me less active in the NASIOC community but I had a few builds I enjoyed following for sure. Plenty of misinformation on that site.

Got the motor home and on the stand, I checked out the flywheel from my old 2.8 and it matches up with the flexplate that came on the motor perfectly. I will need longer bolts though as the flywheel is significantly thicker than the flexplate. Pictures to confirm their shared features.








I like pulling the center of the stand out and mounting it to the motor and then sliding it back into the stand to reattach it.





Also it seems like I can use the stock Uplander mount and maybe it needs a little modification to bolt to an 88 2.8 motor mount, my motor mount bracket on the cradle is custom and has a large landing area that I may be able to adapt to wherever the 88 mount ends up. I may also just make an entirely new bracket as the Uplander one does not seem incredibly robust but I may try it out to see what I think. Just not sure how I feel about having the oil pan take all those forces, might be fine in a minivan but I am going to drive this quite a bit more aggressively.



By the way, that is a counterweighted flywheel for an 85-87 motor, it has never been resurfaced to my knowledge, and you cannot find them easily anymore, so if anyone needs one let me know, I would let it go cheap, probably not much more than price of shipping.
Edit to say I just placed my order for MicroSquirt with an 8' harness and a USB to serial adapter.

I need to locate a harmonic balancer for the 2.8/3.4 I don't care about the timing marks, and I need to locate the pulley that bolts to it as well. I saw Rodney sells an underdrive one, but I want the regular one to ensure proper coolant flow with the Fiero water pump. I can buy an alternator, timing cover, and water pump no problem.

From looking more closely at the engine, I think I will be able to flip the heads and fit the coolant crossover underneath the throttle body on the flywheel side of the motor. I will need to trim all the excess brackets and whatnot off of it but that is no big deal. I may even be able to make a Fiero styled thermostat housing on it, it made filling the massive coolant system very easy when you could remove the thermostat.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 02-26-2021).]

ericjon262 FEB 26, 01:07 AM
The port shape has been tuned significantly since that picture was taken, it matches the shape of the ports on the head much closer, but is larger to accommodate a 1.625 or 1.75" pipe.

Are you planning to run a Fiero timing cover? I'm not sure how easy that will be, Shaun did something similar, not the way I would do it, but he made it work. A buddy of mine locally put an LZ9 in his car, but retained the stock ECU and programming, and low mounted the alternator.




I suspect the Uplander mount could be adapted, but I don't think it will be a direct fit, it sits a little more under the oil pan than the stock Fiero mounts do on a 2.8.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

ignorant prodigy FEB 26, 08:51 AM
I just looked these engines up on youtube. does sound pretty nice.
The engine mount on the engine is a part of the oil pain? Did I read that right?
zkhennings FEB 26, 11:07 AM

quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:


Are you planning to run a Fiero timing cover? I'm not sure how easy that will be, Shaun did something similar, not the way I would do it, but he made it work. A buddy of mine locally put an LZ9 in his car, but retained the stock ECU and programming, and low mounted the alternator.


I suspect the Uplander mount could be adapted, but I don't think it will be a direct fit, it sits a little more under the oil pan than the stock Fiero mounts do on a 2.8.




That is a really clean install, your buddy did a really good job


So my reason for the Fiero timing cover is that it is simpler, smaller, and a little lighter.

The aspect I am not sure of is whether it will work with the stock LZ9 balancer or if I will need a Fiero balancer and pulley. If any of you are able to take a measurement of a Fiero balancer for me that would be very helpful, as I am not totally sure that it will fit on the crank snout, but I think that it will. Measurements I am looking for are the ID, the internal depth, and the OD, all these measurements are for the cylinder that goes over the crank snout, I need to see if the LZ9 pulley/balancer will seal with the 2.8 timing cover, and get an idea if the pulley surface would line up with a Fiero water pump. The OD of the pulley itself would be great too to make sure that if the LZ9 pulley works with Fiero timing cover/ water pump that it is not going to drastically over or under drive everything. I will post all the LZ9 pulley dimensions as well when I pull it off. I would prefer to use the LZ9 pulley if it magically lines up properly. Alternatively if it is minorly misaligned I can get a spacer machined for it, or machine material off of it.

As a backup I could use a 3500 or 3400 timing cover and water pump if the Fiero parts are going to be a pain to get to work. My plan is to put the Fiero alternator in the location of the 3400/3500/3900 water pump using the Fiero timing cover. Nice and low with the weight on the firewall side of the engine. I am kicking around an idea for a very light and simple alternator mount. Every little bit helps the handling and balance.

I don't see any significant downsides to using the Fiero timing cover and water pump, I can't imagine the newer water pumps are significantly more efficient, higher flow is not necessary beneficial, it is all about balancing the rate of heat exchange. Seems like if anything the newer water pumps have gone to a simpler casting with more of the coolant passageways cast into the timing cover.

(Side note that a centrifugal style clutch on a water pump may be a cool mechanical solution to power loss at high RPMs, I am imagining a pulley that can basically start partially disengaging when RPMS get past a threshold, the opposite of a standard centrifugal clutch)

Regardless I do not want to use the LZ9 timing cover as it contains all the VVT jazz, and I am not using the VVT. Yes I could remove it all and make a block off plate where the actuator is, but it is still added complexity and weight with no purpose.

In regards to the Uplander mount, like I was saying my cradle mount "shelf" is custom, it can be seen on page 1 of the build, it sticks out much farther than stock Fiero cradle mount "shelf" so I may be able to drill new holes for it.

However I think a better path forwards would be to make a mounting bracket like 88 Fiero and weld it to the Uplander mount to get the additional mounting points. This would allow me to relocate the engine mount back to factory location with minimal fabrication work. Ignorant Prodigy the Uplander mounting bracket bolts directly to the oil pan and the mount bolts to the bracket. Sketchy IMO but it is a very beefy cast aluminum pan.


The Ballenger motorsports site is great BTW I will be able to make such a clean harness with minimal splices and it won't break the bank.


I will do a search myself but if anyone has a link to the pins that the C500 connector uses that would be great. I sold my V6 harness with the ECU when I sold my motor, but I luckily still have the original 4 cyl harness, but I would like to rewire the critical pins.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 02-26-2021).]

ericjon262 FEB 26, 02:05 PM
We have quite a bit of work tied up in it, but we're both pretty happy with the overall result. the only real issue we have is with the VSS, the E67 doesn't like the stock Fiero VSS.

The LZx cover has the advantage of using a recirculating water pump, much like the N* or LSx engines use, which warms the engine faster, and more efficiently. as you mentioned the VVT solenoid could be removed and a simple cover made to keep everything sealed. I can't imagine it being heavier than the stock fiero assembly, I also think it's no more complex than the fiero setup. This also has the advantage of using a stock thermostat, from the engine in the car, which makes for less headaches later when you're trying to remember the year/make/model the thermostat came from. I feel like changing the cover affects many other aspects of the swap other than just the cover, which can lead to other headaches, EG: The thermostat is in the waterpump suction on the timing cover, you'll have to make provisions for a thermostat, that don't exist in the LIM like the earlier 60V6 engines.

Personally, I would opt for the 3400/LX9 timing cover over the Fiero cover, it's much more compact, and I can't imagine it being heavier than a Fiero part, in fact, I have my doubts the LZx cover is heavier once you account for the fact that it also incorporates the thermostat housing and alternator bracket.

That's my $0.02, if you have any questions about my thoughts on it, I'll be happy to answer, otherwise I'll table that part of the discussion and let you do you.


The oil pan casting is super beefy, I wouldn't call using the mount sketchy unless you don't have some kind of an anti rotation mount in place, like a dogbone, and even then I'm not sure the term would be fitting.

I don't think the centrifugal clutch idea would work well in an application seeing sustained high RPM operation. a better bet would be a high quality electric pump with PWM control, then flow could be varied to a wide range of operating conditions.

I think I have the C500 pin info, I'll look around. Edit: The terminals are Metri-pack, the medium or large ones are Metri-pack 480's. if you measure the blade of the terminal, that's the #. IE, a metri-pack 480 has a 4.8mm blade.

Ballenger is great! you can get the parts cheaper at placed like Waytek, and Mouser, but minimum qty tends to make the overall cost higher, and the connector kits are way too convenient.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 02-26-2021).]

zkhennings FEB 26, 03:49 PM
Those are some good points but I had some ideas to address them.

I don't know how I feel about the recirculating setup, it seems to favor the cylinders in the front of the motor while leaving the rear cylinders siting in hot coolant once you are at operating temps. I want to fix this by flipping the heads so coolant flows across the motor instead of taking a U-turn. The older motors had oil squirters on just the flywheel side cylinders since they got so much hotter.

The alternator bracket is on the coolant crossover, the upper coolant manifold where the coolant outlet and the coolant fill is, and that also is where the power steering pump bracket is. So I would be able to use the Fiero timing cover and still use the alternator bracket if I wanted to. I do want to do a low mount though, and ideally move it to the firewall side of the motor where the AC compressor was.

I have been thinking of how I want to deal with the thermostat, the Fiero coolant system bleeds easily because you can remove the thermostat. At the same time I have never had issues bleeding a coolant system with a thermostat installed, but they also had way less volume in tubing to the radiator than in a Fiero. I have debated using the stock thermostat and fabricating a remote housing for it where it would also fill from so I can pull it out while I fill the system.

My alternative initial thought was to cut the thermostat housing off of the timing cover and weld it in as the outlet in the coolant crossover. My plan with the crossover was to shave it of all brackets and extra junk and run it on the rear of the motor by flipping the heads. It appears as though it could fit below the throttle body without interfering, and the fill neck would end up in a good location. I would weld up the original outlet and weld the thermostat housing on the opposite side of the crossover so it points at the Fiero driver's side coolant tube. I could still run a recirculating setup that would span the motor if I really wanted to. I think this would be a much better system to ensure the motor cools evenly, and it has the benefit of coolant exiting on the proper side of the motor for a Fiero.

However that was my initial thought as this orientation of the thermostat probably will not work though since I imagine it is designed to be on the inlet and not the outlet. But I could always weld it to the inlet on the Fiero timing cover. Or get tricky and possibly weld it backwards with some additional fab work.

I have a tig welder and I have done a bunch of stainless work but I am itching to get in some aluminum welding.

But really I need to take stuff apart to look at things more and decide, no matter what I do my intention is to retain the stock thermostat. I may end up with the stock timing cover but it is definitely almost double the size of the Fiero timing cover. Maybe it will shave down nicely. Maybe I will get a LX9 timing cover and water pump and thermostat. I will stop spinning my wheels until I can get a good look at the parts and hopefully a good solution will come to me.

This MG thread has some good info on this timing cover topic

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 02-26-2021).]

ericjon262 FEB 26, 04:48 PM
on the subject of cooling system performance, the earlier 60V6(Pre-LZ9) uses a bypass system, with the water pump drawing suction on the radiator, and discharging to the engine, with a pipe to bypass water from the thermostat, back to the water pump suction.

The LZ9 and similar use a recirculating system, that draws suction on, and discharges to the engine block, with the thermostat on the water pump suction. this moves quite a bit more water in the block, and reduces cylinder to cylinder temperature differences, as well as reduces water pump parasitic losses.

as far as filling the cooling system goes, on my LX9, I take the hose off the bypass pipe where it connects to the water pump, stick a funnel in it, and fill it until coolant comes out of the bypass pipe, fills really fast, and didn't require any special fabrication to make work. then I just start the engine and bleed the cooling system via a high point bleed on the water pump. the removable thermostat may offer some convenience on a stock Fiero, but I don't see any value in it on a swapped car. YRMV.

Edit: I had no idea there was a CW rotation waterpump timing cover like that! I might need to find one of those...

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 02-26-2021).]

zkhennings FEB 26, 07:42 PM
Cool that makes a lot of sense. I didn't even consider how much that would free up the water pump to have an alternate pumping path other than through the heater core, and how that would help balance all the cylinder temps.

Ok well I wrote a novel here on if-this-then-that situations, debating between all my options, and it led me to a great solution that puts the alternator where I wanted it to begin with and leaves me with a short belt routing in the process, and I can build the alternator mount into the motor mount bracket making it multipurpose. So seems like I will be moving forwards with the LZ9 components, and not flip the heads.

Thanks for all the good insights! Leaves me with way less parts to buy.

So my plan is to run a Fiero alternator because it is adequate and will be the simplest to wire up, I don't need the high output of the new one with 0 electronics on board asides from the MicroSquirt. Unless you can talk me into it haha.



Cannot tell if in reality it will work out to enough belt wrap or not, stock 2.8 belt looks around 100-110 degrees of wrap, I think I can add in an idler to the alternator mount and maybe get enough wrap. I don't see an easy way to put alternator on the other side of the motor without an excess of idlers since I have no AC.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 02-26-2021).]