GM High Value LZ9 Swap? (Page 6/11)
Will SEP 09, 02:20 PM

quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Note the RPM value, one of the reasons that most people thought you could not tune this ECU for boost:

http://images.fieroforum.com/2017/IMG_2339_1.JPG

Until HP tuners came along you could not get PE to come on below that rpm.Before I got HP tuners I used an 8-1 vortec FMU and a snow watermeth system to make the car driveable then adding bigger injectors made it work well. But to change injector constant, turn on PE, shut off VATS and change the redline and the speed limiter and a bunch of other stuff, I had to get HP tuners.

http://images.fieroforum.com/2017/IMG_2343.JPG

High Octane spark advance vs MAP reading vs rpm or why a 2 bar map would accomplish nothing. There are HO/LO tables, tables for PE, tables for alcohol HO/LO etc etc but on none of those tables can you change the map values. So no matter what map sensor you have it will flat line at 104.1. And most of the tables only go to 6000 rpm, even though you can set rev limiters etc as high as you want.



I just went back to your post that started this mess. You don't have a MAF? Yeah, just get a PowerFC and lie to the ECU. If your engine is still holding together it's by the grace of God and liberal use of duct tape.
Joseph Upson SEP 09, 04:32 PM

quote
Originally posted by Will:


The ONLY manual transmission that works with the 3.6 is the F40. Going F40 adds considerable complexity and cost to the swap. The LZ9 can bolt up to a 282 or Fiero swappable F23. Yeah, the F23 needs to be swapped, but it only needs mounts and shift linkage while the F40 requires new axles as well. Boosted power production is going to be a wash between the two, as the LX9 has been pushed to >500 RWHP.

Also, the high feature V6's don't play so nice with the Fiero front cradle crossmember and may require more cradle mods than the LZ9.




My understanding is that he intends to use an automatic, which would be a 6 speed for the 3.6L and although he mentioned boost later in the thread, the primary focus is on naturally aspirated performance and fuel efficiency, for which there is no stock pushrod 60 deg motor close in performance to the DI 3.6L power to displacement. The LGX is a short "breath away from 100 hp per L. The front cradle crossmember is easily adjusted with a saw and welder, very common to Fiero swaps. Either way it's a lot of work for both engines so he may as well get his "blood, sweat and tears" worth the first go around.
wftb SEP 09, 05:19 PM

quote
Originally posted by Will:


I just went back to your post that started this mess. You don't have a MAF? Yeah, just get a PowerFC and lie to the ECU. If your engine is still holding together it's by the grace of God and liberal use of duct tape.



No MAF and no duct tape either. And I have not blown anything up. Turbo charged for 12 years now using the same ECM. I really see no reason to change, I am happy with my setup and changing it to something else just means spending money for nothing. What's a Power FC?

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

Will SEP 10, 02:47 PM

quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

My understanding is that he intends to use an automatic, which would be a 6 speed for the 3.6L and although he mentioned boost later in the thread, the primary focus is on naturally aspirated performance and fuel efficiency, for which there is no stock pushrod 60 deg motor close in performance to the DI 3.6L power to displacement. The LGX is a short "breath away from 100 hp per L. The front cradle crossmember is easily adjusted with a saw and welder, very common to Fiero swaps. Either way it's a lot of work for both engines so he may as well get his "blood, sweat and tears" worth the first go around.



Since the LZ9 was built with the 4T65E, and that trans swap has been scienced out by the 3800 crowd, the LZ9 swap is still MUCH easier with an automatic than the 3.6 swap.

Having to carve the crossmember is not so common and is not necessary for a lot of swaps. It's also that much extra work that goes into the 3.6 swap that doesn't go into the LZ9 swap.
Joseph Upson SEP 10, 04:02 PM

quote
Originally posted by Will:


Since the LZ9 was built with the 4T65E, and that trans swap has been scienced out by the 3800 crowd, the LZ9 swap is still MUCH easier with an automatic than the 3.6 swap.

Having to carve the crossmember is not so common and is not necessary for a lot of swaps. It's also that much extra work that goes into the 3.6 swap that doesn't go into the LZ9 swap.



The work I'm referring to is in the wiring necessary to accommodate the operating system. I don't imagine many will be so attached to the original cross member contours that they wouldn't be willing to change them as needed in exchange for 100 or more hp and better fuel efficiency, after all it is a swap. "Easier" is relative to skill level and or resources and patience, which you yourself have shown.

Purchasing a complete vehicle is a tremendous head start that few here have initiated their swaps with. I'm just saying get the most out of the effort now as opposed to spending even more to do it later after realizing a 3500/3800/3900 Fiero will still be relatively slow by today's production car standards. 10yrs ago, great, today those iron block combos are behind the times except for a "Back to the future" theme.
ChuckR SEP 10, 08:41 PM
They both have their merits. And I have thought about them both a lot. I dont think it is quite 100 hp either. I mean the numbers are LZ9 250 and the 3.6 depending on the iteration you get is at 300-325 so it is 75 HP difference at most. Now that said there is infinite more aftermarket support for the 3.6 then the 3.9 and the potential is through the roof, the 3.9 is not going to be an easy motor to do much with past the swap so it will not be modded past that.

That said, for this first swap I think I am still going to stay with the 3.9 knowing that once I am there it is not going to go anywhere else. I will enjoy the added power, mileage, and dependability for a few years. I will gain the knowledge I need for future projects. This will be a learning experience for me and as I said before I want to make sure I do something I can complete. I know that I will not have a rocket in today's terms, but it will be a better ride than a 2.8 with a 3 speed auto. I enjoy this car with that anemic combo, almost doubling the power will be plenty for me.... for now.

Also there is this:
2007 Chevrolet Impala police package
3.9L/240-hp/245 lb-ft V-6
Four-speed automatic
0-60 mph: 7.5 seconds
Quarter-mile: 15.6 seconds at 91.2 mph
Skidpad: 0.84 g (avg)
Figure Eight time: 27.9 sec @ 0.60 g (avg)
60-0 mph: 132 ft

This is in a car that weighs a full 1000 LBS more than the Fiero. It is not impressive but it is enough to have some fun

The donors for this engine will also be cheaper do to age, supply and demand. So while I will not make the HP i truly wish to hit, (300 WHP ~ 375 crank) It will give me everything else I am looking for. An Economic swap that has a "easier" process. Like Joseph said "easier" is relative to skill level. And I know enough to ask the some of the right questions, but not all. My skills are I have taught myself rudimentary welding, I understand enough about cars to fix most things, and a willingness to learn. IE not a lot of skills. I will go into this swap knowing that it is not going to hit my power goal and that the 3.6 could. But with this I will learn invaluable skills, have more of a working knowledge of what to do and not to do, and still end up with a great car that will be a joy to run and drive. I also plan to outline the whole thing and do a write up on it so that it may help others if they want a good econo swap. At least these are my goals. I do have a father that has a personal machine shop with a lathe, mill, welder, and other assorted tooling that I can fall back on if I need something. (though he is 5 hours away from me, but hey it is a good excuse to go visit!)

As far as the manuals. I love driving a manual, however, my car is an auto, and I already find my big ass feet cramped in the Fiero with only 2 pedals. I know I can convert easy enough but I think it may give me the excuse I need to buy another Fiero that I can 3.6 F40 LOL.
ChuckR SEP 10, 08:49 PM
So with that said, my list of things I need to do this further up the page....


quote
4T65E mounts for 3800 swap from WCF
Axles built from Sinister instructions
Tuning will also be done by Ryan at Sinister when the time comes.
I will be using Aftermarket gauges possibly something like this: Gauges
Custom motor mounts
Corvette fuel filter
Fuel pump? If so what kind flow rate etc....
Miles and miles of wire
Weather pack connectors and crimps, pin removal tool
Fuse box



What have I not thought of that I need to address? Also I may decide to use the instrument cluster from the donor car to save the $700 and use what I already have. I dont know just yet. Thanks again for the great discussions and information.
Will SEP 11, 09:31 AM

quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

The work I'm referring to is in the wiring necessary to accommodate the operating system. I don't imagine many will be so attached to the original cross member contours that they wouldn't be willing to change them as needed in exchange for 100 or more hp and better fuel efficiency, after all it is a swap. "Easier" is relative to skill level and or resources and patience, which you yourself have shown.

Purchasing a complete vehicle is a tremendous head start that few here have initiated their swaps with. I'm just saying get the most out of the effort now as opposed to spending even more to do it later after realizing a 3500/3800/3900 Fiero will still be relatively slow by today's production car standards. 10yrs ago, great, today those iron block combos are behind the times except for a "Back to the future" theme.



With the bracket I posted earlier in this thread, and the available mount brackets for the 4T65, the LZ9 powertrain should be darn close to a bolt-in. Yes, the 3.6 makes more power, but you're also significantly downplaying the amount of extra mechanical work involved. I'm probably downplaying the amount of extra wiring involved... after all, the 3.6 has four cam sensors/phasers + a fuel pressure transducer & probably other additional sensors vs. the LZ9's single phaser and no transducer
Will SEP 11, 09:37 AM

quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:

They both have their merits. And I have thought about them both a lot. I dont think it is quite 100 hp either. I mean the numbers are LZ9 250 and the 3.6 depending on the iteration you get is at 300-325 so it is 75 HP difference at most. Now that said there is infinite more aftermarket support for the 3.6 then the 3.9 and the potential is through the roof, the 3.9 is not going to be an easy motor to do much with past the swap so it will not be modded past that.

That said, for this first swap I think I am still going to stay with the 3.9 knowing that once I am there it is not going to go anywhere else. I will enjoy the added power, mileage, and dependability for a few years. I will gain the knowledge I need for future projects. This will be a learning experience for me and as I said before I want to make sure I do something I can complete. I know that I will not have a rocket in today's terms, but it will be a better ride than a 2.8 with a 3 speed auto. I enjoy this car with that anemic combo, almost doubling the power will be plenty for me.... for now.

Also there is this:
2007 Chevrolet Impala police package
3.9L/240-hp/245 lb-ft V-6
Four-speed automatic
0-60 mph: 7.5 seconds
Quarter-mile: 15.6 seconds at 91.2 mph
Skidpad: 0.84 g (avg)
Figure Eight time: 27.9 sec @ 0.60 g (avg)
60-0 mph: 132 ft

This is in a car that weighs a full 1000 LBS more than the Fiero. It is not impressive but it is enough to have some fun

The donors for this engine will also be cheaper do to age, supply and demand. So while I will not make the HP i truly wish to hit, (300 WHP ~ 375 crank) It will give me everything else I am looking for. An Economic swap that has a "easier" process. Like Joseph said "easier" is relative to skill level. And I know enough to ask the some of the right questions, but not all. My skills are I have taught myself rudimentary welding, I understand enough about cars to fix most things, and a willingness to learn. IE not a lot of skills. I will go into this swap knowing that it is not going to hit my power goal and that the 3.6 could. But with this I will learn invaluable skills, have more of a working knowledge of what to do and not to do, and still end up with a great car that will be a joy to run and drive. I also plan to outline the whole thing and do a write up on it so that it may help others if they want a good econo swap. At least these are my goals. I do have a father that has a personal machine shop with a lathe, mill, welder, and other assorted tooling that I can fall back on if I need something. (though he is 5 hours away from me, but hey it is a good excuse to go visit!)

As far as the manuals. I love driving a manual, however, my car is an auto, and I already find my big ass feet cramped in the Fiero with only 2 pedals. I know I can convert easy enough but I think it may give me the excuse I need to buy another Fiero that I can 3.6 F40 LOL.



Check out this thread: http://www.60degreev6.com/v...rations-for-swap-use

The car engines have manifolds with dual cats. The minivan engines have older style manifolds with a crossover pipe that should be much easier to adapt to a Fiero than the car style manifolds.

Since AFM/DOD doesn't work without a BCM, don't waste your time with an AFM engine.
Joseph Upson SEP 11, 12:18 PM

quote
Originally posted by Will:


With the bracket I posted earlier in this thread, and the available mount brackets for the 4T65, the LZ9 powertrain should be darn close to a bolt-in. Yes, the 3.6 makes more power, but you're also significantly downplaying the amount of extra mechanical work involved. I'm probably downplaying the amount of extra wiring involved... after all, the 3.6 has four cam sensors/phasers + a fuel pressure transducer & probably other additional sensors vs. the LZ9's single phaser and no transducer



The motors come out complete with wiring harness and PCM so the number of sensors are not important as they are already wired and plugged into the PCM, it's the chassis interface end of the harness that has to be worked with and the associated BCM for both will expect to see pretty much the same essential inputs.

bmwguru has what is probably the most impressive and successful similar swap involving the turbo 2.8L version of the 3.6L motor from a Saab swapped in. I didn't review the entire swap thread, but the only complaint about mounting I saw early on involved the difference in the Saab F40 vs. the G6 F40 and having to make new mounts as a result. We have seen nearly every GM motor offered over the past 15 years, or a version of them swapped into the Fiero and some how the 3.6L is not friendly enough to swap, but the 4.6L DOHC Northstar and other V8 motors are? I don't buy it for a second in the absence of EXACTLY what this alleged snafu is to discourage such an effort.

Again it's a swap and will require some far from impossible custom work. With all of the madness I've created, this is exactly the kind of reasoning I would use, get the most out of my effort the first go around, to avoid more time and money fiddling with it later on.