Installing the FAST EZ-EFI 2.0 Multi-Port Retro Kit in a 1987 Pontiac Fiero V6 (Page 5/8)
zkhennings MAR 01, 12:25 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I don't know how we got into AI here... I don't think I brought it up, but none of the ECMs we're talking about use any form of AI. The EZ-EFI 2.0 uses a modest form of machine learning, but I wouldn't even really call it machine learning, because it's just continually (automatically) refining a fuel map variance based on variables it gets from the sensors. So... not really machine learning. The MegaSquirt most definitely does not use any machine learning, it's strictly a decision-tree model that references a fuel map (which you've defined) in accordance with variables it gets from the sensors.






No one is trying to convince you to use MS, but you are just misinformed about what you think it can do.

It does self tune automatically with an O2 sensor input, you will need to set the timing just like in your motor.

You input the engine parameters into the software and it produces a tune to get the car running, and then you can use self tuning while driving to get it in the ballpark, just like with your new ECU. All ECUs need to be actually tuned by a human though.

Yes with MS you have to make a harness, yes with MS you do not have a little display screen like yours will have where you can make changes without a laptop, but other than that I don't think there is as much difference between them as you seem to believe.

You are still going to have to run up and down the street adjusting the tune by hand, or pay someone with a dyno to do it.

Once again, in no way trying to tell you to run MS, but if other people read this thread I want to correct the misinformation. MS has come a long way at this point. And yes MS does not have knock detection built in, but I have a knock module add on for mine that will allow it to detect knock. Different strokes.

Oh and in regards to MS vs 7730, the MS is way faster and has more resolution, and you can tune on the fly. Also the logging capabilities are very good, and it has a cool test mode where you can do things like actually determine the deadtimes for your injectors for example.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 03-01-2023).]

82-T/A [At Work] MAR 01, 02:41 PM

quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

No one is trying to convince you to use MS, but you are just misinformed about what you think it can do.

It does self tune automatically with an O2 sensor input, you will need to set the timing just like in your motor.

You input the engine parameters into the software and it produces a tune to get the car running, and then you can use self tuning while driving to get it in the ballpark, just like with your new ECU. All ECUs need to be actually tuned by a human though.

Yes with MS you have to make a harness, yes with MS you do not have a little display screen like yours will have where you can make changes without a laptop, but other than that I don't think there is as much difference between them as you seem to believe.

You are still going to have to run up and down the street adjusting the tune by hand, or pay someone with a dyno to do it.

Once again, in no way trying to tell you to run MS, but if other people read this thread I want to correct the misinformation. MS has come a long way at this point. And yes MS does not have knock detection built in, but I have a knock module add on for mine that will allow it to detect knock. Different strokes.





For the love of God, please... the religious zeal with the Megasquirt community is just something I've never seen before. I'm sure it's an absolutely fantastic solution for someone who has the time to put in and set it up... but I do not want to have to build a harness, and program an ECM. There is so much going on in my life, and this just isn't something I want to deal with.

I'm going to install this system, like many 1000s of other people have, and it's going to work quite well, and I'll be able to get in, drive it, and never have to think twice about configuring things beyond a few initial settings. I will be running what I would barely consider a modified engine. It's a 3.1 with .040 overbore, 17lb injectors, and a mild cam. Hardly what I would consider to be some crazy race engine. You guys know me... I've been on here for a long time. I have multiple engineering degrees... I'm quite capable of doing all the things that Megasquirt would require of me to do, I just absolutely do not have the interest in doing it.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I think there's more of a psychological thing going on here. I know a lot of people have invested time and money into something (like installing a Megasquirt) in their cars... and I am absolutely positive it's worked out really, really well for them. But it's important to understand that different people have different perspectives on life. I am just looking to relieve my highschool years to some degree in a mid-life crisis. I am not looking to build a race car, or something insanely awesome. Just something that's reliable, and very, very simple. I want to get in and drive it. I won't be drag racing, or doing any kind of racing with it... just enjoying it.

At some point, I have to question whether these responses are genuinely based on concern about my well-being and me wasting money, or people intentionally trying to push something that's very important to them, like the Patriots being better than the Dolphins (which they are not) or something like that. I appreciate the feedback, but what possibly could you say at this point that hasn't already been said? I'm moving forward with this... and I'm excited. I just got my 6EFI MSD box in the mail today... and I'll combine the instructions when I have a minute.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 03-01-2023).]

pmbrunelle MAR 01, 06:09 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
but I think there's more of a psychological thing going on here.



Yes, but the mental bug is not what you think it is...

So I think (am I wrong?) we both sort of agree that all the ECUs in question use lookup tables (possibly adjusted with some feedback), and generate outputs with a human-written executable (decision-tree in your words, but I prefer procedural, as the conditions for an engine are mostly constant for each program loop, without much branching).

I submit that ECUs of similar construction must behave similarly.

My understanding is that you agree with me that the ECUs in question are all similar, yet you believe that the EZ-EFI will behave differently (require near-zero human intervention for tuning), despite its nature being the same. Is my understanding correct? It appears to me that you are stating a logical contradiction.

If there appears to be a logical contradiction, then somebody's mental model or understanding of the situation is wrong. My mental bug here is that there appears to be a lack of understanding, potentially on my part, and this distresses me. I ask questions, and I discuss, because I want to resolve the apparent contradiction.

I have taken as an axiom that similar things must behave similarly. I have assumed this statement to be true, without justification. Do you disagree with this axiom?

Do you disagree that EZ-EFI is similar to MS/7730/other, despite my screenshots showing the lookup tables of EZ-EFI?

********************************************************************************

Your personal desires / life situation have nothing to do with my mental bug.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 03-01-2023).]

PhatMax MAR 01, 06:47 PM
Since the OP wasn’t asking opinions on what to get, why is everybody trying to steer him to something else. I say right on with the install…..we can all learn something here, hopefully we’ll be able to help him out somehow. Certainly don’t want to discourage him posting a build thread……some of us own other cars that might want to modify it at some point.. jmho….
sleek fiero MAR 01, 08:12 PM
PHAT MAX I agree 100 percent. It does't matter which system you use as long as you have fun with the project. Sleek
82T/A Please keep us posted. They give you a rough time for the ecu that you want to use now I am worried that I am next on the list for using an Emtron ecu. Sleek
82-T/A [At Work] MAR 01, 08:54 PM

quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

Yes, but the mental bug is not what you think it is...

So I think (am I wrong?) we both sort of agree that all the ECUs in question use lookup tables (possibly adjusted with some feedback), and generate outputs with a human-written executable (decision-tree in your words, but I prefer procedural, as the conditions for an engine are mostly constant for each program loop, without much branching).

I submit that ECUs of similar construction must behave similarly.

My understanding is that you agree with me that the ECUs in question are all similar, yet you believe that the EZ-EFI will behave differently (require near-zero human intervention for tuning), despite its nature being the same. Is my understanding correct? It appears to me that you are stating a logical contradiction.

If there appears to be a logical contradiction, then somebody's mental model or understanding of the situation is wrong. My mental bug here is that there appears to be a lack of understanding, potentially on my part, and this distresses me. I ask questions, and I discuss, because I want to resolve the apparent contradiction.

I have taken as an axiom that similar things must behave similarly. I have assumed this statement to be true, without justification. Do you disagree with this axiom?

Do you disagree that EZ-EFI is similar to MS/7730/other, despite my screenshots showing the lookup tables of EZ-EFI?

********************************************************************************

Your personal desires / life situation have nothing to do with my mental bug.





I don't really like all the "research paper-esq terms" you're using here. We're a bunch of dudes on a car forum, we don't need to act that level, I live that stuff at work, and don't really want to live it on Fiero Forum if I can avoid it. I only ask why you care so much ... is it that I might be making a bad decision, or is it more that maybe you've spent a lot of time making your Megasquirt work really well, and you're upset that you feel your experience here is not being valued? I cannot emphasize enough that I just do not want to mess with a laptop, and how I absolutely do not feel like making an entire wiring harness from scratch. As most people have said with this kit, the hardest part is simply figuring out where to place the harness, and to me... that's kind of the fun part. It's like renovating a bathroom, where every piece of wood has already been cut, all the tile is already cut, and all I have to do is put it together. I cannot emphasize enough... the harness it comes with has already been pre-wired for 80s/90s GM sensors. With the exception of the ignition wiring, and the fuel pump wiring, everything else is already laid out for me.


Answering your questions. I don't know where you get the idea that human-intervention is required to get the system working. Unless you're arguing semantics.... all you do is put in a few values when you first set it up (# of cyls, fuel injector size, displacement size), and whether or not you want it to control the timing. And that's it. From then on, it essentially works on a PID loop where-by it takes all the values from all the sensors, matches it up with a large database of fuel mapping tables, using a single correction percentage modifier to adjust the table values. This is the open-loop learning that the EZ-EFI offers with the system. It's enough to get your car running pretty decent, and it quickly improves the AFR on something like a sigmoid curve... exponential improvement at first, and then slightly incremental as it experiences new situations.

For the vast majority of engines out there, including even mild to slightly wild modifications, this system will work really well. Through all the research I've done, all the videos I've watched, most people were VERY pleased with it.

There are several situations where the system absolutely did NOT work well for the buyer... and that is usually lumped into two categories:

The car didn't run well before they switched to the new ECM: This can mean there were preexisting conditions with the engine... everything from a poorly installed cam, to timing issues that existed before, to low compression, to bad grounds, to who knows what.


The engine is usually pretty wild: This would be to the point where AFR, timing, not enough vacuum, etc... are very non-standard... which basically means a proper "initial" fuel mapping association for the basic values given at the beginning can't be properly matched up to what the owner has.


But back to your question about the look-up tables. That these screens exist and that I have the ability to make adjustments for WOT, Idle, Cruise... timing, etc... is pretty awesome. But it's NOT NEEDED. You can associate this with making slight tweaks on a carburetor... like say, a Rochester QuadraJet... you can adjust idle by setting the fuel and idle air screw, you can adjust cruising by changing out the jets in the primary and adjusting the linkage slightly, and you can adjust WOT by changing out the jets in the secondaries and adjusting the linkage for the secondaries flap. It's really the same thing. But obviously, none of that is required. For any of the engines I own, there is nothing so wild and crazy that I would need to even touch that stuff.


Now, with your Megasquirt, you have the ability to fine tune everything, at 100rpm increments if I remember correctly... through the entire RPM range, whatever you choose to make it. I'll never get the fine-tuning potential that you get with the Megasquirt, no one here denies that... but I'm going to get pretty damned close. But we're not talking about seconds in the quarter mile here... we're talking about maybe a couple horsepower at wide open throttle. But I'm already leaving tons of horsepower on the table with the old **** that I have in there now. The EZ-EFI is really meant to be a solid fuel injection upgrade for a stock to slightly wild engine configuration.
La fiera MAR 01, 10:27 PM

quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

Yes with MS you have to make a harness, yes with MS you do not have a little display screen like yours will have where you can make changes without a laptop, but other than that I don't think there is as much difference between them as you seem to believe.






With a $60 Amazon table and a $14 software from TunerStudio you can have your screen with multiple styles and have the capability of dataloging.
pmbrunelle MAR 01, 10:51 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I don't really like all the "research paper-esq terms" you're using here. We're a bunch of dudes on a car forum, we don't need to act that level, I live that stuff at work, and don't really want to live it on Fiero Forum if I can avoid it. I only ask why you care so much ... is it that I might be making a bad decision, or is it more that maybe you've spent a lot of time making your Megasquirt work really well, and you're upset that you feel your experience here is not being valued?



As to "why I care"... I can explain. I am a Fiero and automotive enthusiast.

In science, someone presents an idea, it is scrutinized and debated, until there is finally a consensus among the group. When there is a consensus, the group gains collective knowledge, which is generally considered trustworthy.

Here, we study the Fiero. I would like to see this forum continue to grow as a repository of quality Fiero information. The publicly readable back-and-forth debate process is a way to develop this collective knowledge. Perhaps not everyone wants to engage in that sort of exchange, but without debate, I think it is hard to advance our learning.

In this thread, I have not criticized your choice of ECU.

I have criticized your assertion that the EZ-EFI will work in a near-turnkey manner, because I think the statement is incorrect, and therefore merits debate.

I'll get back to the science at hand, in a later post. I have some Fiero parts that need painting.
ericjon262 MAR 02, 02:20 AM
if you don't want to touch a laptop, and have EFI, you're probably going to have a bad time, regardless of what EFI system you use. almost every "modern" standalone EFI system is advertised as "self tuning", to a point, they all are, but most are only going to get you about 1/2 way there at best. There's a 99% chance that you are going to be required to inspect data, and think critically about what that data is telling you, and then make changes to parameters and tune the computer to get the car where it's capable of being.

it's also worth mentioning that anyone you talk to at Fast, DIY autotune, Holley, AEM, Motec, ect, wants you to buy their ECU. if there's an ounce of self tuning, they'll sell it by the pound and emphasize the results. it's not uncommon to see gripes and complaints about paying a tuner to tune so many of these "self tuning" EFI systems.

The problem with a totally self tuning EFI system, is that the number of variables at hand is astronomical, the even tuning two similar engines have a massive number of variables that have to be accounted for in some manner, and none of the "self tuning" systems incorporate nearly enough of the variables to adequately predict the results of a change in fuel or spark. PID loops are great, but only go so far, and they have to be running to be effective, and are only really effective at steady state operation. transients are a whole different ballgame.

all that doesn't even begin to discuss the non ECU related part of the discussion, the driver. I may tune my car to run one way and think it's great, you or Patrick might get in it and start cursing. a "good" tune, is somewhat subjective, something no ECU can account for, and something that can't really be quantified, and evaluated. The biggest issues I see with this discussion, is that there will be no basis for comparison, and therefore, the results are just results, they aren't good, they aren't bad, they just are, nobody will know how good or bad this ECU is, because there is no data to support it being good or bad other than subjective data that isn't quantified. no dyno numbers, no track times, no 0-60, nothing, so nobody reading this thread will actually know what the true difference was, if there was one.

I'm going to say it again, because I think you're expecting an out of the box 10, and you're probably not going to get it, There's a 99% chance that you are going to be required to inspect data, and think critically about what that data is telling you, and then make changes to parameters and tune the computer to get the car where it's capable of being.

if you really don't want to mess with a laptop at all, EFI (regardless of brand)probably isn't the best thing for your car, I highly recommend that you talk to reputable, local tuners, and make sure one of them is willing to look at that setup, and help you tune it.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

I invited Lou Dias to trash me in my own thread, he refused. sorry. if he trashes your thread going after me. I tried.

82-T/A [At Work] MAR 02, 12:05 PM
So apparently, my website (http://www.PontiacPerformance.net) has been up for so long that a lot of my images are starting to come up in the top-5 images for many searches (for various things). In particular, my HEI-8 image... which, while not wrong, was created by me to be used to support a question I had on another forum, rather than being an intended source of information for others. So I'm redoing some of these, which I will end up using in my larger write-up for installing the FAST system and the MSD 6EFI ignition controller. Can you guys tell me if this image (so far) looks accurate? Would really appreciate the help.

UPDATED:

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 03-02-2023).]