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| GM High Value LZ9 Swap? (Page 5/11) |
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Will
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SEP 03, 11:06 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by wftb:
People forget that without boost the intake is under negative pressure. To get to 1 bar in the intake manifold takes about 8 psi on my setup. There is nothing wrong with my guage. I think I am not wording this right, what I mean is it takes 8 psi of pressure in the tube that goes from the turbo to the throttle body to get the ECU to see 1 bar in the intake manifold. And since a MAP sensor is reading Manifold Absolute Pressure (pressure in the intake manifold after the throttle body), a 1 bar MAP will show the intake manifold under boost with a limited range. My boost guage and all my reference points for water/meth etc are connected directly to the intake manifold after the throttle body.
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What "people forget" is that MAP is "Manifold Absolute Pressure". A 1 bar MAP sensor reads pressures from 0 to 1 bar. 1 bar is atmospheric pressure.
| quote | Originally posted by wftb:
Here is a screen shot of what I see on my laptop while taking a scan:
We have gotten way off topic but you can see the MAP is reading boost.
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As you can see, the 1 bar MAP sensor is reading 104 kPa, at maximum, as one would expect from a 1 bar sensor. The MAP signal trace is clipped, indicating the manifold pressure is outside the sensor's ability to read.[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-03-2019).]
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wftb
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SEP 03, 04:22 PM
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The MAP signal goes up and down and corresponds with the boost needle going up and down on the boost guage. At 8 psi on the boost guage is when the MAP signal flatlines cause it has reached its max. I really don't care one way or the other about the accuracy or value of the reading. Once the flatline point is reached, tuning wise all hands are on deck- PE is on, timing reductions are made etc. All I have said is the MAP does read boost. For tuning on my setup, that is all that matters.
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86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 09-03-2019).]
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Will
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SEP 04, 09:06 PM
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Negative, ghost rider.
At the cursor in your image, the MAP is flatlined and the reading is 104 kPa. This means your 1 bar MAP maxed... At 104 kPa.
8 psi of boost is ~155 kPa. If your gauge is showing 8psi of boost right when your MAP sensor hits 104 kPa, then your gauge is wrong. If they're both right, then you're wrong about the gauge hitting 8 psi when the MAP sensor flatlines.
Your ECM is *NOT* boost-aware. It is possible to tune a MAF system this way, but it's not a good idea.
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wftb
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SEP 05, 09:00 AM
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https://forum.hptuners.com/...r-map-on-03-cavalier
RussK is the guy that told me what to do with my tune and steered me to tunes that would help. I found the thread above with a search but all the threads from around 2007 on the HP tuners board are gone, they delete threads when they get old I was told.
When GM sold the supercharger kit for 03 and 04, it came with a dealer reflash but did not come with a 2 bar map sensor. If you order a supercharger kit from ZZP, they only list a 2 bar map for an 05, nothing for 03 or 04.
Everything I have found confirmed what I learned a long time ago- a 2 bar map is not compatible with my OS. People tried and failed, but when it comes right down to it if you do not go totally crazy with boost levels you can tune just fine with the 04 OS.
The guys on the old ecotec forum that were shooting for big power with 2004 systems like mine tried to tune 80 lb injectors and could not make them work, can't remember why but at the power levels they were at by then most of them went to stand alone systems.
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wftb
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SEP 05, 01:08 PM
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Note the RPM value, one of the reasons that most people thought you could not tune this ECU for boost:
Until HP tuners came along you could not get PE to come on below that rpm.Before I got HP tuners I used an 8-1 vortec FMU and a snow watermeth system to make the car driveable then adding bigger injectors made it work well. But to change injector constant, turn on PE, shut off VATS and change the redline and the speed limiter and a bunch of other stuff, I had to get HP tuners.
High Octane spark advance vs MAP reading vs rpm or why a 2 bar map would accomplish nothing. There are HO/LO tables, tables for PE, tables for alcohol HO/LO etc etc but on none of those tables can you change the map values. So no matter what map sensor you have it will flat line at 104.1. And most of the tables only go to 6000 rpm, even though you can set rev limiters etc as high as you want.
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86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 09-05-2019).]
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ChuckR
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SEP 07, 01:55 PM
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Ok so this next question is only for a direct swap Eng, trans, TCU, ECU-
Other than mounts, tune, and wiring what else do I need to look into to complete this swap? I know I would need the "corvette" fuel filter for returnless fuel. Is that all for fuel? What about coolant routing, is it similar? Coolant fill will need a place in the engine bay, Does anyone know if Joseph Upson is still active? He knows this engine well from his posts but he didnt cover ever little detail in his build. Also he made so many changes that it is hard to decipher what is needed on the straight swap. So far this is what I have gathered for needs:
4T65E mounts for 3800 swap from WCF
Axles built from Sinister instructions
Tuning will also be done by Ryan at Sinister when the time comes.
I will be using Aftermarket gauges possibly something like this: Gauges
Custom motor mounts
Corvette fuel filter
Fuel pump? If so what kind flow rate etc....
Miles and miles of wire
Weather pack connectors and crimps, pin removal tool
Fuse box
There is a lot in this short list but I feel like I am not thinking of something. What else would I need?
For the dummy lights to work like the CEL temps etc., The donor I buy will have all this wired through the instrument cluster. Will the factory service manual for the donor have the info on how to separate out the wiring to independently wire out these lights? I want to use the CAN-BUS gauges to limit how many redundant sensors are needed to get things to work. Like I said I will be buying a complete donor so all the sensors and accessories will already be present. I know fitment with AC and Alternator may be an issue so that will require some fab work. I don't even know if I will keep AC it currently doesn't work, but it would be nice to have. Custom exhaust will need to be done as well.
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wftb
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SEP 07, 03:27 PM
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Joseph Upson is on here once in a while. If you PM him will probably get back to you, I heard from him about 3 weeks ago.
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OntarioKev
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SEP 07, 03:30 PM
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You are reading a grand total of 0.4psi of boost.
104.1 In the VCM scanner is total KPA. the first 101 (roughly) is atmospheric pressure (which varies based on various environmental factors like elevation, temperature and humidity).
There are slight variances in MAP sensors where they read slightly above their max but not by much.
You can do various hacks and rescales in HP Tuners to make boost work with only a 1 bar sensor, but if you aren't using MAF with a 1 bar you don't have very accurate control of fueling and spark with boost.
On a side note with how cheap you can get entire cars these days you would be stupid to start with anything less than an LSJ. PCM is already setup for boost with a 2.5 bar MAP sensor. They are even better when you rip off the blower and add a turbocharger.
LNF/LHU engines are even better but they are far more pricey, and more work to deal with because of DI.[This message has been edited by OntarioKev (edited 09-07-2019).]
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Joseph Upson
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SEP 07, 04:07 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by ChuckR:
Ok so this next question is only for a direct swap Eng, trans, TCU, ECU-
Other than mounts, tune, and wiring what else do I need to look into to complete this swap? I know I would need the "corvette" fuel filter for returnless fuel. Is that all for fuel? What about coolant routing, is it similar? Coolant fill will need a place in the engine bay, Does anyone know if Joseph Upson is still active? He knows this engine well from his posts but he didnt cover ever little detail in his build. Also he made so many changes that it is hard to decipher what is needed on the straight swap. So far this is what I have gathered for needs:
4T65E mounts for 3800 swap from WCF
Axles built from Sinister instructions
Tuning will also be done by Ryan at Sinister when the time comes.
I will be using Aftermarket gauges possibly something like this: Gauges
Custom motor mounts
Corvette fuel filter
Fuel pump? If so what kind flow rate etc....
Miles and miles of wire
Weather pack connectors and crimps, pin removal tool
Fuse box
There is a lot in this short list but I feel like I am not thinking of something. What else would I need?
For the dummy lights to work like the CEL temps etc., The donor I buy will have all this wired through the instrument cluster. Will the factory service manual for the donor have the info on how to separate out the wiring to independently wire out these lights? I want to use the CAN-BUS gauges to limit how many redundant sensors are needed to get things to work. Like I said I will be buying a complete donor so all the sensors and accessories will already be present. I know fitment with AC and Alternator may be an issue so that will require some fab work. I don't even know if I will keep AC it currently doesn't work, but it would be nice to have. Custom exhaust will need to be done as well.
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PMd.
For the work you are considering doing as stated in the PM, anything less than the 3.6L in its 320ish hp LFX, or 330ish hp LGX version, is not getting your efforts worth, as the LZ9 will require the same amount of work. Either of those 3.6L motors stock should net you a 12s car and give you outstanding fuel efficiency to boot.
The Camaro enthusiast have boosted bone stock motors with 11.5:1 compression to 15 psi + on pump gas (not E85) some with and without water/meth injection and the accepted breaking point of ~600 whp so boosting is an after thought. Think long and hard about it.[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 09-07-2019).]
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Will
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SEP 09, 02:14 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
PMd.
For the work you are considering doing as stated in the PM, anything less than the 3.6L in its 320ish hp LFX, or 330ish hp LGX version, is not getting your efforts worth, as the LZ9 will require the same amount of work. Either of those 3.6L motors stock should net you a 12s car and give you outstanding fuel efficiency to boot.
The Camaro enthusiast have boosted bone stock motors with 11.5:1 compression to 15 psi + on pump gas (not E85) some with and without water/meth injection and the accepted breaking point of ~600 whp so boosting is an after thought. Think long and hard about it.
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The ONLY manual transmission that works with the 3.6 is the F40. Going F40 adds considerable complexity and cost to the swap. The LZ9 can bolt up to a 282 or Fiero swappable F23. Yeah, the F23 needs to be swapped, but it only needs mounts and shift linkage while the F40 requires new axles as well. Boosted power production is going to be a wash between the two, as the LX9 has been pushed to >500 RWHP.
Also, the high feature V6's don't play so nice with the Fiero front cradle crossmember and may require more cradle mods than the LZ9.[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-09-2019).]
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