88 suspension work (Page 4/6) hunter29 JUN 13, 06:41 AM quote Originally posted by cartercarbaficionado: maybe 88 stuff is smaller since my bolts were 10 mm head size or you got the wrong bolts I'm talking how long they are, like 2 1/4 inches. hunter29 JUN 13, 12:26 PM Your not kidding, these ball joints are tight.. cartercarbaficionado JUN 13, 04:01 PM quote Originally posted by Yellow-88: It sounds like things have improved dramatically since the start of this thread. Somewhere in my vintage files I have an article I wrote on the subject of "Handling". In it there is nothing about lateral Gs on the skid pad, and not even a lot about understeer and oversteer let alone bump steer or torque steer. Handling is about feeling and that's something you seem to understand. To be frank and honest, I have always considered GM cars to feel "numb" and even clumsy. Pre-88 Fierro's fall solidly in that category, mostly because I compare them to the fully alive, almost intimate relationship one "feels" with a vintage British sports car. Yellow is my attempt to create that feeling in a Fiero. The 88 is worthy of my ambitious effort. Unfortunately, I'll may never finish it. I'm back on this forum because Yellow is being "refreshed" and I'm feeling a shot of sports car high. If the rear end is as "perfect as you say, than you have no torque steer. Not to repeat but ...... rear alignment is VERY critical. If your shocks effectively control the springs, they're fine. You have a weak spring? What is "tramline"? Since you don't have any thing to compare too, how do you know that a bit of negative camber has improved your cornering? You made a lot of changes at the same time. There is no baseline data. What are you using for wheels and tires? Suspensions are designed around tire diameter and its contact patch. The 88 has different wheels front and rear for that reason. Screw with the design offset or tire diameter and you loose the excellent geometry of that serious front end. A 25.5" diameter tire on an 88 stock wheel has nearly zero scrub radius. Lotus involved? No, they just used the same text book. It must have gotten secretly smuggled into the design studio. I have plenty to compare it to since it drives fairly close to how it did when I first got it. also I know when the front tires start to slip through a fast aggressive downhill sweeping corner near me and instead of 45 it doesn't start slipping until ~65 which was a shockingly large improvement. honestly? no idea what wheels are on it. it might have 88 specific basket weave style wheels but I'm doubting it and they look like a set I saw on a 87 coupe almost exactly. could be a large part of my issue but it's also not like wheels are in my budget currently. I do have a photo of them in the spoiler thread I made (gonna keep calling it that since it's really not making enough downforce to be called a wing in my opinion. very much for looks and breaking up air currents) hunter29 JUN 13, 05:51 PM I don't believe it was ever meant for down force, just smooth out the air . There is info about it in here somewhere IIRC. cartercarbaficionado JUN 13, 07:36 PM quote Originally posted by hunter29: I'm talking how long they are, like 2 1/4 inches. yeah they have you the wrong bolts. wonder why? also any locknut as long as it's above grade 5 is fine. shoot for 8 and you'll be golden. did your joints require a 4 foot breaker bar to move? mine did after bolting them in to line them up with the knuckle and I don't think they are supposed to be quite that tight Yellow-88 JUN 13, 10:39 PM quote Originally posted by cartercarbaficionado: I have plenty to compare it to since it drives fairly close to how it did when I first got it. also I know when the front tires start to slip through a fast aggressive downhill sweeping corner near me and instead of 45 it doesn't start slipping until ~65 which was a shockingly large improvement. honestly? no idea what wheels are on it. it might have 88 specific basket weave style wheels but I'm doubting it and they look like a set I saw on a 87 coupe almost exactly. could be a large part of my issue but it's also not like wheels are in my budget currently. I do have a photo of them in the spoiler thread I made (gonna keep calling it that since it's really not making enough downforce to be called a wing in my opinion. very much for looks and breaking up air currents) So it feels about the same as it did before you did all that work? When you started, it sounded like it was really bad. So if it's about the same, than it's at least pretty bad. But clearly the limit of adhesion has changed. Since you've been there, what are its steer characteristics at the limit? Over steer, under steer or neutral steer? Thee 88 wheels are not the same spec as the early cars. The 88 uses 15" x 6" wheels up front and 15" x 7" in the rear. The offset is different than early cars also. The wheel specs and tire diameter are readily published somewhere but, I don't feel like looking it up right now so .... The front wheel's center web is flush with the edge, that's how you can see them at a glance. I've said a few times that the 88 front end is a really nice design. But that design is incorrect if wheel specs are incorrect. Be real Carter, the "wing" is for show. The real "air" to think about is what's piling up under front deck lid. IMSA GT JUN 13, 11:05 PM Blacktree on here did the test. cartercarbaficionado JUN 13, 11:16 PM quote Originally posted by Yellow-88: So it feels about the same as it did before you did all that work? When you started, it sounded like it was really bad. So if it's about the same, than it's at least pretty bad. But clearly the limit of adhesion has changed. Since you've been there, what are its steer characteristics at the limit? Over steer, under steer or neutral steer? Thee 88 wheels are not the same spec as the early cars. The 88 uses 15" x 6" wheels up front and 15" x 7" in the rear. The offset is different than early cars also. The wheel specs and tire diameter are readily published somewhere but, I don't feel like looking it up right now so .... The front wheel's center web is flush with the edge, that's how you can see them at a glance. I've said a few times that the 88 front end is a really nice design. But that design is incorrect if wheel specs are incorrect. Be real Carter, the "wing" is for show. The real "air" to think about is what's piling up under front deck lid. I dont have the car infront of me to check wheels rn. it's off a few towns over sitting in timeout after it blew a hole through its muffler. I do know the front and rear wheels line up with the fenders nicely except the fronts stick out at the front edge so probably the wrong wheels yeah it stills drives horrible but at the limit it's understeering which is what I want personally since its much easier to predict and correct for. it does enjoy loosing rear end traction when I'm turning with throttle at low speeds which is mildly annoying since it does it with very little warning but I drove a mustang as the 2nd manual I ever learned on so I'm fairly familiar with random oversteer. yeah but it doesn't trap air under the rear and the front is getting some hood vents to help with cooling (and look baller. thinking of mounting a cowl induction or a torino style bump scoop with front and rear cut out slightly) so that should be a massive improvement Yellow-88 JUN 14, 12:21 AM quote Originally posted by cartercarbaficionado: I dont have the car infront of me to check wheels rn. it's off a few towns over sitting in timeout after it blew a hole through its muffler. I do know the front and rear wheels line up with the fenders nicely except the fronts stick out at the front edge so probably the wrong wheels yeah it stills drives horrible but at the limit it's understeering which is what I want personally since its much easier to predict and correct for. it does enjoy loosing rear end traction when I'm turning with throttle at low speeds which is mildly annoying since it does it with very little warning but I drove a mustang as the 2nd manual I ever learned on so I'm fairly familiar with random oversteer. yeah but it doesn't trap air under the rear and the front is getting some hood vents to help with cooling (and look baller. thinking of mounting a cowl induction or a torino style bump scoop with front and rear cut out slightly) so that should be a massive improvement I'm taking a real interest in this thread because the title, "88 suspension work" because it's right up my alley. Yellow-88 is what the engineers would have done (in my opinion) if they where building one for themselves. They are required by industry standards to build understeer into "consumer" products, for exactly the reason you state. I asked to see if you picked that up. Not every one can. Thanks. Yellow is unique in that it's been modified to have neutral steer characteristics. The chassis is already 90% there. It's a dream for a engineer car guy to start with. It is often assumed that the 88 has no rear "bump steer". Not true. Toe change based on roll angle is a way to optimize steer characteristics. The 88 rear "bump steers" to induce "roll under steer". The stock 88 does that with unequal length lateral links. Yellow has equal length links. The "feel" is much like an extremely well controlled live axel. The rear tires are always parallel to each other, always. Furthermore, all of Yellow's control points are hard bearings. Spherical rod ends in the rear and machined bearings in the front. No bushings any where, all hard bearings. Both cradles are "isolation mounted" BMW style. The precision afforded by those seemingly subtle changes are profound. Of course, alignment with actual zero play anywhere requires a level of precision to match, but the results are huge. Absolutely not "numb" at all, comfortable for a special dinner date and not bad at 4 wheel drifts on the track either. Feel is 90 % of "handling". I replied to your thread on the "explosion". Do check it out. Deck lid vents deserve an other post. cartercarbaficionado JUN 14, 01:24 AM quote Originally posted by Yellow-88: I'm taking a real interest in this thread because the title, "88 suspension work" because it's right up my alley. Yellow-88 is what the engineers would have done (in my opinion) if they where building one for themselves. They are required by industry standards to build understeer into "consumer" products, for exactly the reason you state. I asked to see if you picked that up. Not every one can. Thanks. Yellow is unique in that it's been modified to have neutral steer characteristics. The chassis is already 90% there. It's a dream for a engineer car guy to start with. It is often assumed that the 88 has no rear "bump steer". Not true. Toe change based on roll angle is a way to optimize steer characteristics. The 88 rear "bump steers" to induce "roll under steer". The stock 88 does that with unequal length lateral links. Yellow has equal length links. The "feel" is much like an extremely well controlled live axel. The rear tires are always parallel to each other, always. Furthermore, all of Yellow's control points are hard bearings. Spherical rod ends in the rear and machined bearings in the front. No bushings any where, all hard bearings. Both cradles are "isolation mounted" BMW style. The precision afforded by those seemingly subtle changes are profound. Of course, alignment with actual zero play anywhere requires a level of precision to match, but the results are huge. Absolutely not "numb" at all, comfortable for a special dinner date and not bad at 4 wheel drifts on the track either. Feel is 90 % of "handling". I replied to your thread on the "explosion". Do check it out. Deck lid vents deserve an other post. dm me that parts list. might be interesting to try once I swap 88 stuff into my 87 gt project. or when a formula is cheap nearby since I wanna try a high revving carbed 2.8l with some more neutral handling suspension so I can push it harder and have slightly more chamber gain through a corner since it will be a weekend track car especially since I'm using some honda transmission parts to try prototyping a dog box style synchro so I can slap the gears and shift at much higher rpm. of course thats assuming the stock 5 speed survives me to begin with