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| Aces EFI - the best 4.9L Option? (Page 3/5) |
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81 4.9L X-11
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AUG 07, 05:28 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
Have been following this thread closely. There's a lot of good info here for people looking to do or have done a 4.9 liter engine in their Fiero. While the Aces EFI will do the job most Fiero swaps use the stock 2240 ECM. The Cadillac 4.9 liter V8 Fiero swap maybe a bit dated but I believe it's still a good engine. It's lightweight, fits great, has loads of low end torque and it gets pretty decent highway mileage. I chose this engine on my convertible project because it's a very good engine for hwy cruising and fun driving around town. .
With the right software editor you can shut off the VATS and do a pretty decent job of tuning the engine and transmission but on the electronic side you're already committed. so I assume the ACES EFI self adjusting quality was the reason you used it. Some swipes have also added a camshaft but the red line stays the same so I left that alone as to not affect the gas mileage.
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You nailed it Dennis, Hwy cruising and fun around town! The self tuning is great, I've set desired air/fuel ratios in different places and it doesn't take long for it to correct the fuel table. For the Budget Beater Skylark I wanted to fix idle and AC input and figured it was the lowest risk (lowest cost) to get the Deuces Wild and see what Aces is like to work with. For me, saving time is a high priority and the Aces setup was up and running fast - I would say exceptionally fast compared to my OEM swaps. The wiring harness is a big part of that, I only hooked up 6 wires and was driving= Battery +, Ground, Ignition, AC input, Fan and Fuel relay control (later added added pick up wires). The harness has every wire labelled and has high quality mesh loom. I figured it saved multiple days of wiring and tuning a OEM swap (stock harness). I've always done the stock harness route before, but now this is the way to go. I have several projects in line and a move home to Florida next year so saving time is huge for me. I ended up ordering a full top end kit for the Turbo LS Olds Omega swap I'm doing next because at the price, everything included and bonus of saving at least a week on build time.
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Dennis LaGrua
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AUG 08, 10:34 AM
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Another question. The 4.9L Cadillac V8 engine uses an idle air control motor to set idle speed. Its very different than what is used on most other GM cars. Your installation doesn't seem to use any IAC. How did you get around that? The 4.9L engine also uses a cam position (hall effect sensor) that may be critical to timing. When it goes bad, the engine runs like crud. Apparently you did not use a CPS or IAC.. What you did here with your swap is working but a rather complex, expensive and difficult approach. IMO its pretty hard to use an alternative ECM on this engine and get it working right but a few others have also done it. ------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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81 4.9L X-11
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AUG 09, 03:11 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
Another question. The 4.9L Cadillac V8 engine uses an idle air control motor to set idle speed. Its very different than what is used on most other GM cars. Your installation doesn't seem to use any IAC. How did you get around that? The 4.9L engine also uses a cam position (hall effect sensor) that may be critical to timing. When it goes bad, the engine runs like crud. Apparently you did not use a CPS or IAC.. What you did here with your swap is working but a rather complex, expensive and difficult approach. IMO its pretty hard to use an alternative ECM on this engine and get it working right but a few others have also done it.
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* It's Magic !! *
No, not really - it's in a well engineered throttle body - it has IAC, IAT and two 100 lb injectors built into it that you don't see. The Aces TBI units only need two sensors hooked up and they are both provided in the kit - coolant temp (use in stock location) and the Wideband O2. The harness has extra length wire for both. Given all needed sensors and inputs are included, it is very easy to install and have running in a weekend. It took me longer to plumb the new fuel lines and pump than it did the harness, ecm & throttle body. The Deuces Wild, High Roller CDI, AN fuel lines, new fuel pump and some hardware ran me just under $950. The CDI isn't needed, I just like running one, so without it this setup is about $800 ($850 if use Aces coil) for the kit and fuel upgrades - and it runs better than an oem Cadillac.
The 4.9s got a single prong hall effect sensor to sync the sequential port fuel injection - it tells the ecm when it's at #1 TDC, so it is not needed to run TBI and does nothing for ignition. Cadillacs run bad when the hall effect sensor fails because it defaults to a safe setting because the ecm can't see when the engine gets to #1. Aces uses a dual sync "7 + 1" hall effect sensor for sequential multiport injection, which uses evenly spaced gaps and 8 metal tabs on a shutter wheel. The #1 is half as wide as the other 7, hence "7+1". This allows the ECM to sync the injectors to the firing order. Ford used this setup in their DuraSpark for years which is why I'm looking to modify it to use Aces multiport system on a future project - it will give the best of all around performance, tunability and fuel economy.
The Aces systems come boost capable with wideband O2 sensors and are self learning, so for me it is a much better starting point/ build strategy. OEM swaps work, I've done several but they have challenges and short comings. I think the Deuces Wild kit is a great option for those that want to try doing the work for themselves but don't work on cars all the time. Its a cost effective option, even if paying someone because it is a fraction of the labor/time compared to making OEM stuff work.
I appreciate the questions, let me know what else I can share.
Cheers[This message has been edited by 81 4.9L X-11 (edited 08-10-2025).]
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psquare75
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AUG 10, 01:08 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by 81 4.9L X-11:
I've been looking into the universal sequential port systems (Wild card and Joker) because I really want to use them with their trans controller for custom Cam and turbo mods, but there is a hurdle - Aces uses a 7 + 1 hall effect sensor to correlate cam timing to fire sequential port injectors. Short answer: the MPFI kits won't work with an HEI - I used a vaccum HEI with the TBI kit and it works ok, but is much better giving timing control to the Aces ecm. For the TBI setup, you just wire the two magnetic pickup wires from the distributor and set timing - then you can have ECM fire the HEI coil, but I would recommend you use the Aces coil and convert to remote mount. I'll post and update soon, but I figured out a remote setup for less than $10 in hardware plus a plug wire. Also, you can use any year 4.x distributor - I initially used a 4.5 because it was better suited to convert to vaccum advance, but then found it wasn't necessary, it runs much better feeding magnetic pick up to the ecm.
I talked to Aces about modifying a distributor to work with the Caddy motors, but won't happen for awhile if they do. I'm not sure there's enough market for them to offer a dedicated distributor, so I'm looking to modify a Ford distributor or if needed cut and weld 2 different ones together. That's how I got an LT1 PCM to run my modified 4.9 - welded an Opti spark onto the HEI and used a Coil per cylinder conversion kit to run LS coils.
I know its a ways out, but would be great if you have it done and can join the X-bodies at Carlisle next June. |
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Sounds like I'm better off putting some freeze plugs into the injector holes for now and running a TBI setup. I'd love to go terminator but $$. I'm very interested in what you did ultimately (so I can do the same with my 4.9 ha).
Carlisle might be doable. Would be nice to meet Terry, Brad, and yourself.[This message has been edited by psquare75 (edited 08-10-2025).]
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81 4.9L X-11
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AUG 10, 09:55 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by psquare75:
Sounds like I'm better off putting some freeze plugs into the injector holes for now and running a TBI setup. I'd love to go terminator but $$. I'm very interested in what you did ultimately (so I can do the same with my 4.9 ha).
Carlisle might be doable. Would be nice to meet Terry, Brad, and yourself.
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Cool, always welcome other enthusiasts!
Far as the freeze plugs, unless your trying to be super show car I'd leave the injectors and fuel rail - it won't hurt anything and you know they seal properly. Aside for the update I'll post next, I think everything you need to get it running with a TBI kit is in this thread - if not, hit me up. To clarify ignition, when you put the motor together set #1 TDC on timing mark and distributor - if it doesn't fire right away, rotate slightly clockwise. You'll have to do the TPS learn first and then once at temp use the hand held to "lock timing:" which is 15*BTDC and then use timing light to set distributor (unlock in hand held when done). When your ready, email me and I'll send you my working tune - will save you lots of time. The whole open tuning thing Aces does is one of the things I really like about their approach, it makes it possible for anyone to use a learned tune to run.... kinda like car guys put it together !!
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psquare75
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AUG 10, 10:44 PM
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I'm more anal than I care to admit, lol. I'm going to reseal this, do the baby Delta cam, and call it a day.
I'm guessing the software is similar to Holley EFI?. I do like the separate ECU. Never had an issue with either sniper I did, but the Terminator I did in my F100 has a separate HP style ecu I stuffed under the center of the front seat. Seems much more preferable. The 4.9 dizzy is the only thing really throwing me off.
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81 4.9L X-11
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AUG 11, 04:09 PM
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Update on remote coil conversion:
I posted earlier that the FAST remote coil conversion kit fails pretty fast, no pun intended. I decided to try some stainless steel hardware and it works great. I checked after about a thousand miles and it is not a pile of shavings like the brass button was, so I'm confidant this is a good option. The best part is all the pieces were at Home Depot and less than $10. I used all stainless hoping to prevent the corrosion issue when different metals stay together without a protective coating.
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81 4.9L X-11
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AUG 11, 05:22 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by psquare75:
I'm more anal than I care to admit, lol. I'm going to reseal this, do the baby Delta cam, and call it a day.
I'm guessing the software is similar to Holley EFI?. I do like the separate ECU. Never had an issue with either sniper I did, but the Terminator I did in my F100 has a separate HP style ecu I stuffed under the center of the front seat. Seems much more preferable. The 4.9 dizzy is the only thing really throwing me off. |
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If your wanting to keep the multiport and try an Aces Wild Card system, I'll help prototype the distributor. I want to have the solution soon, but I'm not in a position to work on another full 4.9 swap right now. I got my hands on a new DuraSpark this weekend and disassembled it to see what it would take to use it. It won't be as easy as say the remote coil conversion but I'm pretty sure I can make it work. I'm also waiting to hear back from Aces with dimensional info for their distributors to see if there is a better fit, hoping it gets to the right person because the Techs said I need to talk to an engineer...
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psquare75
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AUG 15, 09:02 AM
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Im game. I have a bit of time. 
I just mocked up a mount.
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81 4.9L X-11
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AUG 17, 09:06 PM
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Ok, cool - mount bracket looks good. What's your timeline for the build?
I ordered some aluminum stock to sleeve the dizzy shaft, should be in next week (4.X Caddy distributor housing tube is wider than anything else I could measure). My plan until the universe tells me different is to sleeve the Ford Durospark tube and drill new hole in the shaft for the Caddy length and cam gear. I'll plan to try it on my Skylark so we know it'll work ....
Cheers
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