ICM soft failure (Page 3/5)
OH10fiero JUL 28, 10:18 PM

quote
Originally posted by Yellow-88:

Hi

I think it's time to defend Chinese electronics. Your cell phone is Chinese. So is most of your computer. They are good at making electronic stuff. Every Country is capable of making poor quality stuff and China is no exception. We actually have no idea where these parts come from. Nobody will get sued over defective old car parts. Corporate ethics is no longer a thing. There is no oversight watchdog paying attention. In my day even the parts counter guy felt responsible for poor quality parts because his reputation was at stake. Welcome to the new world.



The main factor is cost. When sending bids out corporations will constantly send them back for rebid or flat out tell manufactures what they want the cost per unit to be, when this happens quality is the thing to be sacrificed. Also, when going with manufacturing in countries outside the US the regulations that affect the quality of parts have a series of loopholes that allow corporations to ignore in order to maximize profits.
If products from outside US manufacturing was subjected to the exact same regulations as the US this conversation would be a rare occurrence instead of popping up every couple months.
82-T/A [At Work] JUL 29, 07:44 AM

quote
Originally posted by Yellow-88:
Hi

I think it's time to defend Chinese electronics. Your cell phone is Chinese. So is most of your computer. They are good at making electronic stuff. Every Country is capable of making poor quality stuff and China is no exception. We actually have no idea where these parts come from. Nobody will get sued over defective old car parts. Corporate ethics is no longer a thing. There is no oversight watchdog paying attention. In my day even the parts counter guy felt responsible for poor quality parts because his reputation was at stake. Welcome to the new world.




I would disagree...

You can still make things in China with literally no quality control or standards. I'm at least old enough to remember when we thought the same thing about Japanese products... and most of their stuff was crap at the time, but it eventually did get better by the mid 80s, and exceeded reliability of American products. Now Japan makes some of the most precise measuring instruments in the world. China has not reached that level yet overall, but it has in some areas, specifically things like mechanical watches, cell phones, and computer equipment. That's because the QA/QC is managed by an American company (e.g., Apple, Samsung, etc.). But the run of the mill reproduction parts from China are still basically garbage. You only use those parts if you are desperate. Another example with China. I rebuild Swiss watches as a weird hobby. China (Seagull) bought the ValjouX 7750 movement manufacturing components, and now reproduce them in China (along with other movements, like the ETA 2840). The design is essentially the same ... mechanically, but the difference between them and the Swiss is the quality control. The Swiss build watches in lab coats, hair nets, and sterile gloves. The Chinese do it in factories... so you get skin flakes, dust, hair, and other things in the watch movements that can prevent them from running right. Now, look at ignition control modules... it would be the same as perhaps not properly applying sealant everywhere it should... this is quality control... which China simply does not have for most things produced there.

As for corporate ethics... it's the opposite of what you say. Corporate compliance and ethics were never a thing in the 50s - 2000s. It's a burgeoning "industry" if you will, and companies now have Code of Conduct, Privacy Standards, and a dozen other compliance and ethics programs that are either mandatory by regulations, or encouraged as a result of competition (ESG, whatever). There is/are more corporate ethics today than at any time in world history.
Yellow-88 JUL 29, 11:04 AM
Hi

OK, corporate ethics has improved but the desire to be seen as "reputable" has not changed.
Quality control has always been expensive so it's a "logical" cost savings area. Both the aerospace industries and "high visibility" consumer products get the most attention from QC departments, bean counters and marketing people. Naturally, aerospace stuff gets the highest level of QC. Dangling details left to the bottom corners of manufacturing like old car replacement parts don't need to worry. I think that applies to all countries. You'll never see a ICM quality problem on the news.

I asked in a separate thread about defective new parts because there seems to be a lot of talk about it but I personably have not seen one.
This thread was supposed to be about how and why ICMs fail.

I've always been intrigued by precision mechanical devices. Sounds like a fun hobby.
Dennis LaGrua JUL 29, 12:17 PM
To add to the discussion there is a difference in manufacturing a complete product (that usually has a warranty) than making replacement parts. The replacement market business usually goes to the lowest bidder while the completed product has to strive for consumer acceptance. . Its a difference of just throwing something in a box to marketing a product where you are selling features, quality and reliability. Its the short term vs the long term With Chicom replacement auto parts; its a roll of the dice. The monthly pallets of returned parts at my local Autozone tell the story. Also look online at the many horror stories of Chicom tires blowing up. I recently spoke to a guy that has had a distributor rotor melt.
The market is now saturated with Chicom fuel pumps, alternators, water pumps , wiper blades and electrical parts.
If you find good replacement parts that last buy them now. Our cars are getting old and its only time before they become obsolete.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Yellow-88 JUL 29, 12:40 PM

quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

To add to the discussion there is a difference in manufacturing a complete product (that usually has a warranty) than making replacement parts. The replacement market business usually goes to the lowest bidder while the completed product has to strive for consumer acceptance. . Its a difference of just throwing something in a box to marketing a product where you are selling features, quality and reliability. Its the short term vs the long term With Chicom replacement auto parts; its a roll of the dice. The monthly pallets of returned parts at my local Autozone tell the story. Also look online at the many horror stories of Chicom tires blowing up. I recently spoke to a guy that has had a distributor rotor melt.
The market is now saturated with Chicom fuel pumps, alternators, water pumps , wiper blades and electrical parts.
If you find good replacement parts that last buy them now. Our cars are getting old and its only time before they become obsolete.




Yes, that's what I mean by, "Dangling details left to the bottom corners of manufacturing like old car replacement parts don't need to worry."

"The monthly pallets of returned parts at my local Autozone tell the story." Really? Pallets? Monthly? And Autozone is still in business?
82-T/A [At Work] JUL 29, 12:57 PM

quote
Originally posted by Yellow-88:
I asked in a separate thread about defective new parts because there seems to be a lot of talk about it but I personably have not seen one.
This thread was supposed to be about how and why ICMs fail.



I've not seen that thread, but I will say that I've run into several shoddy parts... but less frequently I'd say.

Back in the late 90s, when my Fiero was my only car, and I didn't have a lot of money... I'd have to routinely replace things like alternators, ignition control modules, O2 sensors... what have you.

It's possible that they failed for some other reason that led to the original failing, but in most cases... it was just poor quality control. Alternators for example, were a big problem that I ran into. They'd usually only last a year or so. I think I went through 3 alternators in my 87 Fiero from 1996-1999, and the original one lasted almost a decade. Things like waterpumps... I bought a "Holley" water pump for my V6 from Coltec Industries. I was told it was high performance because it had a plastic impellar which made it spin faster or less drag or some nonsense. I believed this since I was young and dumb, until such point the impeller broke free from the pulley and my engine overheated.

And with ignition control modules... I actually bought one of those Accel ICMs. I don't remember if it failed. I did have an Accel ignition coil, and Accel injectors on my Fiero as well (17# injectors). While I didn't have any of the problems that others are saying they had, I will say that I went through several ignition control modules and MAP sensors before I went back to AC DELCO / GM, and never had a problem. My car even has the engine fan which directs cool air towards the ignition coil.

Just one of those things...


If I had to throw out a wild guess, I'd stick to mostly OEM makes... AC DELCO, or DELPHI... since they seem to have better quality control (in my experience).


EDIT to say... most of the shoddy parts I purchased from places like Discount Auto Parts, or Advanced Auto Parts "back in the day." Most of these (for example, alternators) were simply rebuilt used parts. Like... they didn't even re-work everything. They'd take junkyard alternators, disassemble them, replace the bearings and a few other things... hot tank the case, install a new pulley and connector, and slap it all back together and put a sticker on it. That was "bronze" level... GOLD was where you actually got all new parts.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 07-29-2024).]

armos AUG 04, 06:25 PM
It might be interesting if we could collect internal photographs of different ICMs - then we'd really know which ones are the same and which are different, and depending on the detail might even be able to tell which are using better components. But I don't think they can be opened easily.
If people start doing that though, it would make sense to collect those photos in a new thread with a title dedicated to that purpose.


I've never had a V6 ICM die, but I guess I'm lucky about that. When I got my 86 in 2010, it came with 2 aftermarket ICMs - one installed and one loose in the trunk. IIRC I swapped to the other ICM out of curiosity and they both worked. The previous owner must have been swapping them, but I don't think they had any fault.
Later I got a couple GM modules from eBay at a good price, and I've had one of those installed ever since. The old aftermarket ones were still working though.

When I got my car it did have an intermittent ignition issue, so I think that's why the PO was messing with the ICMs, but that was caused by a broken connector. I also had a fusible link burn out on me in a few months, so he could have had early symptoms from that I suppose. At some point I replaced the pickup coil and the ignition coil, but I don't remember if I had a good reason. None of my ICMs ever turned up dead though.

It's logical that cooling them will only help them, but I'm not sure how often that's the real cause of death. Have people with chronic ICM issues found that they were solved when they added cooling?

Although I haven't done anything specifically to cool my ICM, it might not run as hot as in some cars. I do have the cooling tubes that blow air into that area (really it blows on the ignition coil). The engine bay might also not get quite as hot since I don't use the stock radiator fan switch. Most of my driving trips also aren't very long. I did drive cross-country a few years ago, but that's at interstate speeds, not idling in traffic.
Patrick AUG 04, 06:41 PM

quote
Originally posted by armos:

Have people with chronic ICM issues found that they were solved when they added cooling?



My ICM failure (as mentioned Here) wasn't "chronic" as it only ever happened once... but the ICM failure was directly related to my plugged cat at the time which caused the engine bay temperatures to skyrocket.
82-T/A [At Work] AUG 04, 07:05 PM

quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

My ICM failure (as mentioned Here) wasn't "chronic" as it only ever happened once... but the ICM failure was directly related to my plugged cat at the time which caused the engine bay temperatures to skyrocket.




Speaking of... I was cleaning up my daughter's stock exhaust system (really good shape, and original... so I just lightly sanded it and painted it with 2000 degree ceramic paint, which I'm sure will all completely flake off the first time we start the car)... but never the less... the original catalytic converter was on the car. It was one of those charcoal pellet-style cats. I replaced it with one of the Ocelot ones from the Fiero Store (which fit perfect), but when I started shaking the muffler... it was completely filled with little charcoal balls. It took me forever of shaking it around and turning the whole thing around in order to get all the little pellets to eventually work their way out of the muffler.

Ugh...
Patrick AUG 04, 07:15 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

...the original catalytic converter was on the car.



My Formula (different Fiero than the one with the plugged cat) still has it's original pellet style cat. Whether the pellets are still in the cat or not, I don't know... but that engine has always run well, and I don't notice any strong odors from the exhaust.