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| Which transmission 5speed or tweeked automatic (Page 3/3) |
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weaselbeak
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MAR 30, 01:35 AM
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My 3800 is backed up by the Muncie 4 speed. Tougher trans and way better gear spacing. I care less about the 5th gear advantage as the revs aren't all that bad at higher speeds anyway. I'm sure it costs me on fuel mileage, I get around 26-27 on the road. In my old age I might prefer an auto.
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SCCA FIERO
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MAR 30, 10:08 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by reinhart:
If you want a modern experience, stay with the 4 speed automatic. If you want a dinosaur get the manual. |
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Whaa?? The modern experience is the flappy paddles and 6-10 speeds or more. The problem is the new generation is soft and are confused about which bathroom to use. The manual transmission is not a dinosaur, it's a part of the driving experience. If you disagree, you are a lazy dinosaur...
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pmbrunelle
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MAR 30, 10:42 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by weaselbeak:
My 3800 is backed up by the Muncie 4 speed. Tougher trans and way better gear spacing. |
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There is some element of opinion in what constitutes "better gear spacing"...
I calculate gear spacing by dividing a gear ratio by the ratio of the next gear up:
Isuzu:
2-3 1.41x (2.04 2nd divided by 1.45 3rd = 1.41)
3-4 1.41x
4-5 1.39x
Getrag:
2-3 1.49x
3-4 1.47x
4-5 1.31x
Muncie gear spacing:
2-3 1.57x
3-4 1.53x
Once you're moving (excluding 1st), Isuzu ratios are pretty sweet with near-constant gaps; the throttle blip for a downshift is consistent for different gears, because the spacing is uniform. I used to have a Fiero with an Isuzu in it. I liked it a lot, besides the massive 1-2 gap.
I haven't driven a Getrag Fiero.
Wider gear spacing in the Muncie makes it harder to drive IMO. Upshift a bit too early, and your engine falls flat on its face as it drops out of its powerband. Maybe with a 3800 SC it has enough low-end grunt that you don't notice / don't care.
My present Fiero has a Muncie. It works, but the gear spacing is a bit wide for my tastes.
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Skybax
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MAR 31, 06:37 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
I haven't driven a Getrag Fiero.
There is some element of opinion in what constitutes "better gear spacing"...
Wider gear spacing in the Muncie makes it harder to drive IMO. Upshift a bit too early, and your engine falls flat on its face as it drops out of its powerband. Maybe with a 3800 SC it has enough low-end grunt that you don't notice / don't care.
My present Fiero has a Muncie. It works, but the gear spacing is a bit wide for my tastes. |
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MY8 or M17 ???
Reason I ask is because you're the first Fiero person I've come across to say that, so I assume you are talking about the 4-cylinder 4-speed...
There really is no comparison between the 4-speed and the 5-speed when it comes to a stock/original V6 Fiero. The M17 Muncie 4-speed is better is almost every way... More useful 1st gear, more positive/firm vintage shifts, quicker (mid 15 sec 1/4 mile vs low 16 sec), less problematic, stronger, longer clutch life, quieter, and a few others I can't think of at the moment. The only benefits of Getrag is smoother/more modern shifts (if you like that) and 300 rpm lower at normal highway cruising speeds.
Another factor to consider that may vary is geographical area. I live in PA with constant rolling hills and no highway driving, so the M17 4-speed is a joy to drive in PA, whereas if you live somewhere live like Florida or the Southwest where it is flat and wide open it might be different. I've owned 2 Getrag's and I always viewed the Getrag as a more modern convenience transaxle for the Fiero, sales/marketing, more gas mileage, extra gear, smoother shifting... but not better. The Muncie feels more similar to the exotics of the era, but to each his own.[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 04-01-2022).]
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Skybax
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MAR 31, 07:41 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by SCCA FIERO:
The problem is the new generation is soft and are confused about which bathroom to use. The manual transmission is not a dinosaur, it's a part of the driving experience. |
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Haha, it's funny you would say that, just 2 days ago I was in a small Italian cafe and 3 ladies walked in, and one was telling a story to the other 2 about never seeing or knowing anyone who could drive a manual transmission, and didn't know they were still existed. That made my eyebrow rise, because its not something I thought I would ever hear from the general public / masses in my lifetime.
PS: I agree 100%, its makes you one with the vehicle in more ways than one.[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 03-31-2022).]
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pmbrunelle
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MAR 31, 09:13 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Skybax:
MY8 or M17 ???
Reason I ask is because you're the first Fiero person I've come across to say that, so I assume you are talking about the 4-cylinder 4-speed...
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My current car has M19 gearing + 3.2L turbo V6. It sees a mix of city, freeway, rural, and occasional dragstrip use.
Torque on this engine drops off a (relative) cliff below 2500-3000 RPM.
A 3800SC car wouldn't have this torque drop off down low.
I also tried a friend's M17 with a stock 2.8 (me driving in the video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie6PoyAuBw0
Besides a few quarter mile runs, I took that M17 / stock 2.8 car for a spin around the block.
With both Muncie setups, I was not impressed with the spacings between gears. Gaps/splits are on the wide side for easy driving.
| quote | Originally posted by Skybax:
There really is no comparison between the 4-speed and the 5-speed when it comes to a stock/original V6 Fiero. The M17 Muncie 4-speed is better is almost every way... More useful 1st gear, more positive/firm vintage shifts, quicker (mid 15 sec 1/4 mile vs low 16 sec), less problematic, stronger, longer clutch life, quieter, and a few others I can't think of at the moment. The only benefits of Getrag is smoother/more modern shifts (if you like that) and 300 rpm lower at normal highway cruising speeds.
Another factor to consider that may vary is geographical area. I live in PA with constant rolling hills and no highway driving, so the M17 4-speed is a joy to drive in PA, whereas if you live somewhere live like Florida or the Southwest where it is flat and wide open it might be different. I've owned 2 Getrag's and I always viewed the Getrag as a more modern convenience transmission for the Fiero, sales/marketing, more gas mileage, extra gear, smoother shifting... but not better. The Muncie feels more similar to the exotics of the era, but to each his own.
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The "spacings" I calculated in my previous post are the reciprocal (1/x) of the "splits" in your table. Essentially the same thing, but expressed differently.
I changed from an Isuzu to a Muncie because I wanted a tougher (when using the M17 case) transmission. The Muncie is fairly available among Fiero people, less rare than Getrags (availability of spares is a good thing). I appreciate the mechanical simplicity of the Muncie. The 4-speed left-right shifter select feel is more direct, since that gating is done at the shifter, rather than inside the transmission as with the 5-speeds.
Freeway cruising at 3000 RPM also works out with my specific car, since it's enough RPM to keep the turbo "awake" and ready to go. For normal freeway passing, I don't need to downshift to 3rd unless I'm in a hurry.
I do think the Muncie has some positive points, and these positives are why I have one in my Fiero.
However, the gear gaps are (in my view) a less good aspect of the Muncie... nothing to rave about.
It's hard to make a car that appeals to everyone's tastes, especially at a low price point... that why some Fiero folks modify them.
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Skybax
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MAR 31, 09:41 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
My current car has M19 gearing + 3.2L turbo V6.
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That explains it, I missed that the first time around, its not the same as a stock V6 Muncie 4-speed, I grabbed this from Page 1 of your awesome build...
| quote | Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
I decided to use the complete 1984 M19 gearset.
I thought about using the 3.31/1.95 1st/2nd from the M17, since they're closer together than the 3.53/1.95 1st/2nd of the M19.
However, I wanted the deep 1st gear reduction.
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Another strange thing is after reading the archives most people felt the Muncie shifted smoother than the Getrag which surprised me, but like you said that "direct" feeling has something to do with the gating being done at the shifter and not inside the trans, totally different driving experience.[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 04-01-2022).]
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