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| Questions: LX9 3500 swap using 2005 stock PCM from G6 (Page 3/3) |
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Will
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AUG 05, 11:34 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by ericjon262:
while this is true that they use the same computer, the hardware, as you point out, is wildly different, the crank and cam position reluctors are nothing alike between the obd2 Gen 1/2 V8's(including the 4.3), and the gen3+V8's. I won't say it's impossible, but I can't provide any concrete evidence as to whether it would work. if anyone wants to buy an LS1 definition file for me, I'll open up tunercat OBD2 and see what's in there. |
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GM DIS ignition, which the Shelby .bin allows the 0411 computer to interface with, is functionally pretty similar to a distributor in terms of sending one trigger pulse per ignition event.
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ericjon262
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AUG 05, 02:22 PM
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I just re-read your first post and have a few notes...
| quote | Originally posted by SteveMushynsky:
Years ago I blew the engine on my 2006 SE I4 going up a mountain in northern Nova Scotia. To my wife's considerable chagrin, it's been in our garage since I towed it back to New York. I recently bought a 1984 2M4 with 4-sp manual in good condition (except for weathered paint) with 34K miles on it - and promptly blew its motor driving it the short distance home.
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Some early 4 speeds had a non ribbed case that was very weak, if the area around the differential is smooth, it might not hold up against an LX9. if it's the ribbed version, you'll be good to go, just use an 88 Fiero flywheel.
| quote | Originally posted by SteveMushynsky:
I intend to begin an LX9 3500 swap this coming fall and have been studiously reading everything I can on the subject online. I want to use a stock PCM from a 2005 Pontiac G6 # 12591279 as it was used in both LX9 3500/auto and LZ9 3900/auto or non-electronic manual vehicles as I will be using the 2M4's 4-sp transmission for now. I wish to preserve some BCM-based options such as cruise control and A/C. I also wish to
switch from the DBW throttle to a cable-operated, larger throttle body. (No, I do not wish to swap an LZ9 3900 or a 3800SC instead)
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I highly doubt you will be able to use a cable throttle with the G6 PCM, when GM made the switch to DBW, they began removing the hardware required for the IAC motor as the throttle could be adjusted by the PCM directly to control idle speed. The cruise control on these cars, was also handled by the DBW throttle, and either a cruise input to the PCM, or, a can bus signal from the BCM, the only hardware required to add CC to a non CC car nowadays, is a CC switch, the rest is software in the computer.
Also, the LX9 TB is about 65mm, without much room to grow bigger, you end up compromising the available sealing surface, and having potential for a large vacuum leak. a 65mm TB should be adequate for most stock headed engines.
| quote | Originally posted by SteveMushynsky:
PCMPerformance states on their website that they work with this G6 PCM and can set custom options on it ( https://www.pcmperformance....mming.html#SUPPORTED ). However, they claim a steep price for their services at a stated $400. Much of the available reading on PCM options and programming is rather dated. I'm sure that the art has progressed since, but I can't find much beyond either regressing to the 3400 engine's control system and hardware and, of course, the inevitable 3800SC advocacy comments.
Has anyone accomplished an LX9 3500 swap using a 2005 Pontiac G6 PCM? Can anyone recommend a source for reprogramming same at a reasonable cost? Any helpful advice on accomplishing this swap this way?
My intention is to leave the LX9 as stock as possible and perhaps reserve an option to experiment with adding a turbo in the future if I feel masochistic enough.
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if you ever think you might turbo the engine, I would make a strong effort to pick an ECM/PCM that is known to work in a boosted application, the 3400 PCM has some interchange with the 3800, and the 3800 was available with forced induction. Your flexibility would be greatly improved with a 3400 PCM, or OBD1 even. the 3800 programming can run a 3500, I did it several years ago when I still had an interest in OBD2.
if you do decide to turbo it, you'll want new valvesprings, the stockers leave alot to be desired.[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 08-05-2019).]
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SteveMushynsky
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AUG 07, 01:49 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by ericjon262:
Some early 4 speeds had a non ribbed case that was very weak, if the area around the differential is smooth, it might not hold up against an LX9. if it's the ribbed version, you'll be good to go, just use an 88 Fiero flywheel.
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I will look into this re the 4spd I have. Thanks for the tip on this.------------------
Steve Mushynsky
1984 Fiero 2M4
34K miles
1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor)
Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.
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ericjon262
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AUG 07, 02:01 AM
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Darth Fiero
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AUG 07, 05:07 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by SteveMushynsky:
Per the AC Delco resource, I see that the ECU for the 2006 G6 3.9L manual transmission version is a different part number from my 2005 G6 3.5L. I also noticed that the auto and manual transmissions for the 2006 G6 3.9L are controlled by the same TCU part number. I take it that the ECU communicates with the TCM in the same manner regardless of the transmission options therein, but with differing data options communicated. |
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Manual transmission applications don't use a TCM/TCU. Only the ECM is present. In auto transmission applications that have separate ECM and TCMs, the ECM communicates with the TCM over the GM hi-speed LAN data bus.
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So with the same engine, the same PCU # works with either transmission type. For a manual transmission, the ECU needs at least an input from a transmission VSS, correct? (Please bear with me - I'm learning here) |
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In a manual trans application, the VSS would connect directly to the ECM (and the OS in the ECM would have logic to deal with the VSS input signal).
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So, to be proper, I would need to find an ECU from an LX9 equipped vehicle with a manual transmission, right? Only there were no LX9 vehicles with manual transmissions, I think, and the LX9 and LZ9 don't share ECU part numbers, true?
Is there any developed wizardry among the ECU reprogramming world to get around this conundrum?
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To my knowledge, the LX9 was NEVER offered with a manual trans in any production application. The AC Delco online parts catalog should be able to answer your question as to if the LX9 ever shared the same part number ECM with the LZ9, but I don't think it did. All of the LX9 applications I've seen were still using PCMs (the same module controlled the engine and transmission). By the time the LZ9 and other 3500 variants were introduced in 2006, GM split the PCM into separate ECM and TCM modules. And I've never seen an LX9 with separate ECM and TCM modules (but again, AC Delco online parts catalog should be able to verify this for you).
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Reading your prior reply, please note that the Uplander ECU is the same manufacturer part number that I've already obtained that is taken from a 2005 Pontiac G6 with LX9 & auto transmission: Part # 12591279. This is my starting point - unless, of course, I need to start with something else. |
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It is possible HP Tuners might be able to read and edit the 2005 G6 LX9 AT tune that's on your 1279 PCM. I haven't tried it. But even if it can't, we can always reprogram that PCM you have with stock 05 Uplander programming which HP Tuners should be able to edit.
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I also note that the VIN eighth digit for this and the rest of the 2005 GM LX9 minivans is "L", rather than "8" as for the non-minivan cars. I assume this denotes an exhaust and accessories difference to accommodate the minivan platform.
As to the VATS/BCM issue, I'm actually not averse to adapting my Fiero to a VATS pushbutton start system with the BCS's cruise control feature and A/C, too. It seems an interesting challenge and besides, my son - who is a certified Toyota master mechanic - has done the equivalent with his engine-swapped MR2. He does tuning for Toyota hardware, but is unfamiliar with and has not the equipment for GM stuff.
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I don't think I've ever seen a stock LX9 equipped car with pushbutton start. And you would need to run a BCM/pushbutton ignition system that is compatible with whatever PCM/ECM you are using.
And to be quite honest, it might be something you want to avoid. I ran into problems trying to retrofit a 2011 Corvette LS3 and the BCM from that car into a 1951 Studebaker truck. The BCM had all sorts of problems recognizing the fob in this swap - so much so we had to place the fob right next to the transceiver module every time we wanted it to be recognized (and permit the pushbutton start to work). However, I will admit I'm sure all the extra steel on the interior of this truck probably caused the problems. The Fiero doesn't have near as much steel, so it could work.
-ryan
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Will
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AUG 08, 09:26 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
To my knowledge, the LX9 was NEVER offered with a manual trans in any production application. The AC Delco online parts catalog should be able to answer your question as to if the LX9 ever shared the same part number ECM with the LZ9, but I don't think it did. All of the LX9 applications I've seen were still using PCMs (the same module controlled the engine and transmission). By the time the LZ9 and other 3500 variants were introduced in 2006, GM split the PCM into separate ECM and TCM modules. And I've never seen an LX9 with separate ECM and TCM modules (but again, AC Delco online parts catalog should be able to verify this for you).
-ryan |
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The transition was from 4 speed automatics with single PCM controlling engine and trans to 6 speed automatics with separate TCM on the vehicle network. This also coincides with the switch from 24x (and other) crank triggers to universal 58x crank triggers... it was a wholesale transition of whole vehicle electrical architecture across the entire product line, so almost everything changed across that transition. The LX9 was before that transition while the LZ4/LZ9 were after.
It might be interesting to start with a 24x V8 OS and see if it can be set for 6 cylinder operation. That would open up all kinds of tuning opportunities.
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Darth Fiero
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AUG 09, 02:40 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Will:
The transition was from 4 speed automatics with single PCM controlling engine and trans to 6 speed automatics with separate TCM on the vehicle network. This also coincides with the switch from 24x (and other) crank triggers to universal 58x crank triggers... it was a wholesale transition of whole vehicle electrical architecture across the entire product line, so almost everything changed across that transition. The LX9 was before that transition while the LZ4/LZ9 were after.
It might be interesting to start with a 24x V8 OS and see if it can be set for 6 cylinder operation. That would open up all kinds of tuning opportunities. |
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The last year a "PCM" was used in a FWD V6 application was, I believe, 2006 with the LX9. That same year, GM rolled out the next generation 3.5L: LZE and LZ4 which used a separate ECM and TCM (to my knowledge, a "PCM" was never used with an LZE, LZ4, or LZ9). See: https://web.archive.org/web...r%20eng%20trans.html
GM continued using the 4-speed autos with 58x V6's in FWD applications thru at least the 2009 model year (separate ECM and TCM). The LZE and LZ4 3.5L's were primarily used with 4T45E transmissions in smaller vehicles like the G6 and Malibu, while the Impalas got the 4T65E (G6's with the 3.9 LZ9 also got paired with the 4T65E).[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-09-2019).]
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Will
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AUG 12, 11:06 AM
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I didn't realize they'd used the 4 speeds with the TCMs. Interesting.
They did use the 6 speed auto with the 3.5 in one Saturn app, so the metal exists to run 6 speed auto with LS4 (less the starter mount).
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