1988 Fiero Formula - auto transmission fluid leak (Page 2/4)
theogre JUN 28, 01:06 PM
Braided hoses are 2x to several times the cost of metal lines. And likely need ~ 20 feet or 6+ meters of X hose.

Braided hose has same problems as standard hoses because is flexible.
IOW often will need to rerout them and/or need a lot of clamps to hold under the car or expect hose will get damaged to rip out of car driving over RR tracks and more.

Some Braided hoses make take less space then standard rubber but is way more then metal it replace.
Meaning:
hoses in same place has less "ground" clearance vs metal.
hoses may not fit in some places... any gap or hole in frame/body of car to clear metal lines often won't fit any hoses.

So even if you fix a leaking hard line w/ any hose to get by often have issues like these even if just a temp fix.

Example: I had fuel return fix as above because no clearance and no easy anchor points to replace w/ fuel hose.
did use a hose to fix heater line but have to change the support clamps setup and if leak somewhere else may not fit or need a lot more work to the car.

Tiny things become targets to catch crap that can cause fires, rip out whatever, etc.
I had 2 long self drill screws because of a "mechanic" shop think is easy to install things that way. Those 2 screws drilled thru floor and caught a lot of road crap. I had to cut the bottom to stop it.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 06-28-2023).]

br1anstorm JUN 28, 03:34 PM
Thanks to all who have joined in this discussion - it's all useful.

Just to clarify why I'm looking at different options.

I'm looking to do a one-time, long-lasting replacement, not a quick and dirty fix or patch. Just replacing a section of the pipe won't do: leaks are likely to occur elsewhere along the original pipes sooner or later: they are over 30 years old and bound to be rusting inside that spiral winding.

I've looked at The Fiero Store replacements. That is, in a way, the most attractive solution, as 82-T/A suggests. Made to measure, stainless steel.... what's not to like? The main problem is shipping and delivery, especially as I'm over in UK. They can't be rolled up or folded, they are very long, and very vulnerable to handling-damage. International shipping is massively expensive. I've also noted that installing the s/s pipes, which are not flexible and don't bend, can be a PITA.

So when I saw that flexible braided hoses for transmission fluid were available, I wanted to know if they were a viable alternative. I thought they might be easier to fit, and obviously they can be coiled up for despatch. So a smaller package, less costly, with lower risk of damage. The Ogre points out that they are more more expensive than the rigid pipes - true, but then the P&P is going to be a lot less. But he rightly also warns that they might also be difficult to install because they might be "fatter" and harder to clamp into place or fit into the route taken by the original pipes. So not necessarily an easier alternative....

The third option would be to have pipes made up (which I can get done over here in UK) using "cunifer" (copper/nickel/iron) pipe, and based on the old pipes as a template. That, too, has questionmarks. 5/16" cunifer pipe is not that easy to bend (although easier than stainless steel) so shaping the pipes could be tricky. And I'd need to know, and to fit, the right connectors at each end. Can anyone give me the proper technical spec for the connections? As far as I can see the connectors are 13mm threaded hex nuts... but is there a more accurate size or technical description? Is 6AN a widely-used technical term and does that relate to type, size or diameter of pipe or fitting? I ask because over here such things are labelled differently, sizes tend to be metric, and so it's hard to judge what the correct fittings are.

At the end of the day I may have to bite the bullet and order the Fiero Store tailor-made s/s replacement lines. Or order them from the other supplier I have found, also in the US - a company called Inline Tube, based in Michigan, who sell via eBay. The challenge is sorting out safe delivery at reasonable cost....

[This message has been edited by br1anstorm (edited 06-28-2023).]

82-T/A [At Work] JUN 28, 03:46 PM

quote
Originally posted by br1anstorm:

Thanks to all who have joined in this discussion - it's all useful.

Just to clarify why I'm looking at different options. I've looked at The Fiero Store replacements. That is, in a way, the most attractive solution, as 82-T/A suggests. Made to measure, stainless steel.... what's not to like? The main problem is shipping and delivery, especially as I'm over in UK. They can't be rolled up or folded, they are very long, and very vulnerable to handling-damage. International shipping is massively expensive. I've also noted that installing the s/s pipes, which are not flexible and don't bend, can be a PITA.




Hi, this is not really accurate. I would call Matt at the Fiero Store first. These tubes are in fact flexible. They even come folded in two specific places to make shipping a lot cheaper and the box smaller. There is a big yellow tag that says "shipping bend" on it, which you can then simply unbend. Before you go with an aftermarket solution, I highly encourage you to reach out to Matt at the Fiero Store and at least get a quote from him: The Fiero Store info@fierostore.com

I've ordered multiple sets of lines like these. Two sets of stainless fuel lines (one for my 1987 Fiero SE / V6) and recently a set for my daughter's 1985 Pontiac Fiero SE L4. I've also ordered stainless steel brake lines (the complete replacement brake lines, in stainless, for my 87 Fiero), and even ordered their replacement clutch master cyl stainless lines that connect the clutch master cyl in the front to the slave cyl in the rear.

In every case except the 85 fuel lines (because they were already small and had flexible tubing in one spot), the rest of the lines had shipping bends in them to accomodate a box that was like 1/3rd the size. I was able to unbend them with absolutely no problem at all.
theogre JUN 28, 04:36 PM
Only fittings are on the radiator end.
Can't remember what type of Flare they used.

To remove/replace that end need Two Flare Nut wrenches so don't piss off the cooler or rad tank.

If replace the fitting to use other types, have to change rad part that screws into the cooler. That joint should some size of pipe fitting using US NPT.

Other end is just simplest hose "barb" w/ small "bumps" so hose can "blow off" for a clamp a little loose.
You can make these w/ Double Flare kits by partly doing first step only.
But problem is most kits sold to public only work w/ soft copper and related, not harder stuff, and break the part for first step of the DF.

Note that Even then w/ right tools, old plastic rad tanks break very easy. So if trying to save the rad, I would cut cooler lines somewhere where is straight enough to use compression fittings.
OE fittings are easy to remove/replace but rust and abuse often weld the parts and then won't move easy.
br1anstorm JUL 13, 03:12 PM
I'm still wrestling with this problem while my Fiero is off the road.

In an ideal world I would probably want to fit pre-formed stainless-steel transmission coolant lines such as those offered by The Fiero Store. But while replacement lines are not that expensive, shipping them to UK - even if they are "folded" to reduce package size - is very costly. A pair of lines themselves cost around $180. The shipping is about $500. And on arrival in UK import duty, customs dues and value added tax are charged on the total invoiced cost of the item (ie the cost of the lines plus the shipping costs). Probably won't leave much change from $1000....

Which casts some doubt on the Ogre's claim that flexible braided hoses are more expensive than the pre-formed hard lines. A kit of 2 x 16 ft lengths of braided auto transmission coolant hose, can probably be bought here in UK for under $150. No additional taxes, duties or customs charges, and negligible delivery cost. And then the connectors at each end are not going to be very costly either.

Flexible braided lines are widely and reliably used in a wide variety of vehicles including race and rally cars as well as, obviously, for heavy duty industrial machinery. The other advantage is that it would seem much easier to install flexible lines as they can be threaded through, under, or over the Fiero's suspension and chassis components in a way that would be much more difficult with the pre-formed hard lines.

Two questions remain (and this is why I asked if any other Fiero owner had fitted flexible transmission fluid coolant lines). What size/diameter of braided hose would be appropriate? It looks as if 8mm is the nearest to the original 5/16" pipes. And what fittings would be required at each end? "6-AN" or AN-6 fittings seem to be most commonly mentioned - but I believe this is a US technical standard. Are these in fact the connectors used at each end of the original lines (into and out of radiator/cooler and into and out of the auto transmission) on the Fiero? The connectors on my car look a little different, but I don't know exactly what they are.

As an example, here is an online listing of a stainless steel braided hose kit:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184538576910

Something similar with nylon braided hose:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353378057423

I can't really place an order with any supplier - or even a local workshop - until I can specify exactly what size, length and end-fittings I require. Has anyone ever done this on a Fiero? And if so can anyone help by advising the specific technical details?

[This message has been edited by br1anstorm (edited 07-13-2023).]

theogre JUL 13, 05:23 PM

quote
Originally posted by br1anstorm:
Which casts some doubt on the Ogre's claim that flexible braided hoses are more expensive than the pre-formed hard lines.

Wrong. I said No such thing. More so Because you're in UK and know TFS and other US parts Cost Way More for Shipping VAT etc. I've shipping enough stuff international to know how bad Customs and other jack the price.

Plus May have Problems @ MOT because of Flex and how installed under the car.

In Very Short Summery... METAL Lines bent by you or any local shop is cheaper and often safer then Flex trying to fit same route as OEM lines. Including bending tools you often need to bend tight w/o crushing.

Just use the old lines as template to bend new lines. Often doesn't need to be 100% copy to work either.
Then mount exact same way and done.

Copper or Cunifer is "soft" but supports itself between OE mount points.

If have very long runs, may need a few extra supports but not like any Flex. If you have to drill more holes make sure what's on top because wires are often directly on other side of floor etc. and hate shortest drills and screws.

There are many reason Why Flex Tube is used for only Specific Conditions.
In Fiero and most others only between the Transmission and Frame holding Metal lines because they move a lot. Even then 1 flex hose need extra support to keep a loop of hose. The Loop isn't just flex but act as "valve" to prevent TC Draining when parked.
JCB Cat J-Deere only have it at joints like at backhoe arm sections and moving hydro rams... Party Cost + Is Flex and need more protection and support.

Buying Parts of Eflay is a Good Way to have Failures Now or Soon. Far too many things are complete crap counterfeit that won't last.
While Coolant Lines see near 0 PSI, a "small" leak can Quickly Empty the trans. Same reason many "upgrade" Oil Pressure Sender to 88 unit because old type often does same even while gauge works.
br1anstorm JUL 15, 06:22 AM
Thanks, Ogre. I think you have persuaded me to go with rigid pre-formed replacement lines rather than using braided flexible hoses.

DIY fabrication isn't an option: I don't have the tools or the expertise.

So the challenges now are to source the correct replacement lines from a reliable supplier (most votes seem to go to The Fiero Store...); to work out the most economical shipping option; to minimise taxes and duties at the UK end; and - finally - to see if I can thread the pre-formed lines under/over/through the chassis and suspension without having to dismantle the entire vehicle.

Easy, isn't it?
shemdogg JUL 15, 05:31 PM
Sometimes here in the states shipping to a business is cheaper, dunno about over there. Good call on the preformed lines, you know they work and will last. Flex lining the whole thing just doesnt sound right. And if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. Thats what separates the sheep from the goats.

BAAA!

shem
Mike in Sydney JUL 16, 07:48 PM

quote
Originally posted by br1anstorm:

... I think you have persuaded me to go with rigid pre-formed replacement lines rather than using braided flexible hoses.

DIY fabrication isn't an option: I don't have the tools or the expertise....




Brian, Before you go and order new lines from the U.S., consider taking the old lines to a competent mechanic (Where's Ed Chyna when you need him?) and see if they can copy the lines in stainless steel. I suspect they can do it cheaper than bringing in lines from out of the country. If stainless isn't a goer, you could use copper but install heavy duty heat shrink before the lines are flared. I wouldn't shrink the heat shrink until you install the lines, That way, you can adjust its position to meet your needs. BTW, I like to use heat shrink with the adhesive inside. It's goo for preventing any moisture from gettin in.
olejoedad JUL 18, 11:04 AM
Cunifer would be your least expensive option, if the shop is reasonable as to labor rates.

I would think that the fittings on the radiator end could be reused.

Since the cunifer is easily bent by hand, you may even be able to do it yourself.