TOTALLY REBUILT BUT WON'T START, TIMING? (Page 2/2)
batboy OCT 16, 09:31 AM
Typically, when it seems like the engine kicks back when cranking the starter, that means the timing is too far advanced. If you can't get it to make any noise (cough, sputter, backfire, etc.) then you are probably way off. Trying to find TDC like you did does work, but it's not exact, but should get you into the ball park. I think on the V6 if you're 180 degrees off, you'll be top dead center on #4 cylinder. But, don't automatically assume it's out 180. I would take #4 spark plug out since it's easier to get to than #1 and crank it by hand or bump the starter over a little at a time (use a remote start button if you have no one to help). With a finger on the plug hole you can tell when you are on the compression stroke. Use a plastic straw or something similar to make sure the piston is at the top. Pull the distributor cap off and see what spark plug wire the rotor is pointed at. If everything was done right, it should be pointing at #4 wire terminal. If it's pointed at #1, then you're 180 off. If that is the situation, just turn the distributor until the rotor points at the #4 wire. If the dizzy can't turn that far, you'll have to pull it out and drop it back in. If you'd rather not pull the distributor out, rewire the cap (with the correct firing order) so the #4 is in the firing position. Hope you understand what I'm saying.

EDIT: I might be wrong about which bank is odd cylinder numbers. Regardless, you can find TDC for any cylinder and the rotor should point to that wire on the distributor cap.

[This message has been edited by batboy (edited 10-16-2021).]

eti engineer OCT 16, 10:31 AM

quote
Originally posted by batboy:

Typically, when it seems like the engine kicks back when cranking the starter, that means the timing is too far advanced. If you can't get it to make any noise (cough, sputter, backfire, etc.) then you are probably way off. Trying to find TDC like you did does work, but it's not exact, but should get you into the ball park. I think on the V6 if you're 180 degrees off, you'll be top dead center on #4 cylinder. But, don't automatically assume it's out 180. I would take #4 spark plug out since it's easier to get to than #1 and crank it by hand or bump the starter over a little at a time (use a remote start button if you have no one to help). With a finger on the plug hole you can tell when you are on the compression stroke. Use a plastic straw or something similar to make sure the piston is at the top. Pull the distributor cap off and see what spark plug wire the rotor is pointed at. If everything was done right, it should be pointing at #4 wire terminal. If it's pointed at #1, then you're 180 off. If that is the situation, just turn the distributor until the rotor points at the #4 wire. If the dizzy can't turn that far, you'll have to pull it out and drop it back in. If you'd rather not pull the distributor out, rewire the cap (with the correct firing order) so the #4 is in the firing position. Hope you understand what I'm saying.



Maybe I am backwards, but isn't cylinder 1 on the back side of the engine on the right as it sits in the car? I thought cylinders 2, 4 and 6 were on the firewall side. I have a schematic that I got in this forum that indicates that the odd numbered cylinders are in the rear when the engine is in the car. So you're saying this schematic is incorrect? This would explain a lot!!!
batboy OCT 16, 12:06 PM
This is not the first time I've been wrong. I looked at a random internet firing order diagram for a V6 and got one thing and now that I look at my Haynes manual, it shows the odd number cylinders on the rear bank like you said.I'm used to working on V8 engines which has the odd numbers on the driver side. Sorry.

Other than that, what I said is correct, Just use #1 if that's handy. Find TDC and see what wire it's pointing at. If it's not pointing to the #1 wire terminal, that's your problem.
eti engineer OCT 16, 12:53 PM

quote
Originally posted by batboy:

This is not the first time I've been wrong. I looked at a random internet firing order diagram for a V6 and got one thing and now that I look at my Haynes manual, it shows the odd number cylinders on the rear bank like you said.I'm used to working on V8 engines which has the odd numbers on the driver side. Sorry.

Other than that, what I said is correct, Just use #1 if that's handy. Find TDC and see what wire it's pointing at. If it's not pointing to the #1 wire terminal, that's your problem.



OK. You had me worried there for a bit. Thanks for the information. I, too, am used to working on V8's and in-line sixes (Nissan and BMW). When I saw the firing order for this V6, 123456, I thought that cant be right, but then when I looked at the actual configuration on the engine itself, it made sense. Thanks to you and the rest of the people who posted in here, I think I have enough ammo to get this resolved. I will post it when I do.

Have a good day!!!
Rick Vanderpool OCT 16, 04:22 PM

quote
Originally posted by eti engineer:


Thanks... There are a few good pointers in here to try. I will do these first and see if I can determine this. Do you see any harm in just putting the engine at TDC with the distributor rotor at cylinder 1 as it is right now, pulling the distributor and turning it 180 degrees and reinstalling it? If it was right to begin with, could I damage anything if the spark occurs way out of whack? I have had this happen before on old engines and there was no damage, just backfiring though the carb and a lot of explosion noise (LOL)!!! I just don't want to damage anything on this fresh engine.


I have built/repaired several engines, transmissions, etc, but have never really worked on a mid-engine vehicle before. Whole new experience!!!!

Thanks...



When you say the rotor is pointing at cylinder 1 are you referring to the engine or the distributer cap which the cylinder 1 wire is plugged into? It doesn't matter how the distributer is oriented to the engine, only how the rotor is oriented to the distributer body.
Rick
Patrick OCT 16, 04:32 PM

quote
Originally posted by Rick Vanderpool:

It doesn't matter how the distributer is oriented to the engine...



Well, yes and no. You've got to be able to plug in the wiring.


quote
Originally posted by Patrick Here:

Over the years here, I've seen so much confusion relating to setting the static timing.

First of all, the cap position can be anywhere you wish to orient it... as long as the rotor is pointing to the terminal used for #1... and the piston is at the top of the compression stroke for cylinder #1.

The only thing restricting where the distributor can actually be positioned is the wiring harness. Obviously the connection for the ICM can't be pointed away from the coil if you expect to connect the harness etc.

Below is the 2.8 in my Formula. To do the initial static timing, I have the timing mark for cylinders #1 and #4 (the wider mark on a known good harmonic balancer) set to 0° with #1 piston on the compression stroke. If I'm installing the distributor, I drop it down so that when fully seated, the rotor is pointing at the indicated bolt on the upper intake. I then rotate the outer distributor so that the terminal I'm using as #1 (as it could be any which one you want) is lined up with the rotor. The terminal I've selected seems to work best in regards to orienting the distributor towards the coil. The engine is now timed well enough to start, and dynamic timing can now be set with a timing light (or for the old guys like me, by ear). Nothing to it.
reinhart OCT 16, 07:12 PM
Rather than removing the distributor and flipping 180, if you're just testing to see if that's the problem, why not just pull the plug wires at the distributor cap and move them 180? If this fixes the problem, you can pull the distributor at that point. My method can be done in 1 min.
eti engineer OCT 17, 07:05 PM

quote
Originally posted by eti engineer:

Well, I finally got the '88 back together and tried to start it this morning. I have everything I need to make it run. I have spark, I have 35 psig oil pressure just from the starter cranking it, I have fuel getting to the injectors and pressure in the fuel rail, etc.

Some background...

I had to replace the harmonic balancer. The one I ordered came with no TDC marking on it and instructions stating that I would have to find TDC and make my own mark. I did this while the engine was on the stand and had the valve covers off. Easy thing to do, then.

The one thing that I may have screwed up on was while the engine was on the stand, I was turning the engine over by hand and oiling things as I went. I also used my drill to spin the oil pump to ensure it was primed and oiling the engine. But in turning the engine over by hand, even though I was trying to keep track of TDC, I may have messed up. I didn't think I did, but my timing may be 180 degrees out.

I tried to advance the timing as much as possible to see if this would change anything, but due to the cramped quarters around the distributor itself, I was not able to rotate it much.


PROBLEM SOLVED!!!! MAYBE SOME OF YOU CAN USE WHAT I DID TO MAKE YOUR LIFE EASIER. READ BELOW...


OK, I started the engine and it runs. I should have mentioned up front that I replaced the distributor assembly with a brand new one. This requires finding top dead center in a different way. It is much easier on an older car with the engine in front. The old distributor was so rusty from the fact that the vehicle sat for a while. So I had to figure out if the distributor was installed correctly in the engine. I came up with a way to figure it out quite easily.

I did it this way:

I have a large dial compression checker gauge that will hold pressure. This is nice in that sometimes it is hard to try and read a gauge while the engine is cranking. Space is tight and makes it difficult in many cars. The gauge hose has an end that is threaded to screw into the spark plug hole. The other end has a quick disconnect fitting so I can undo the gauge while I am screwing in the hose to the spark plug hole. Very handy on the Fiero since there is little room in which to operate. So I screwed the hose into cylinder #1 hole, reattached the gauge, and used a 1/2" drive with a 3/4" socket to turn the engine over. My reasoning was that as I turned it over, I should be able to see some compression reading on the gauge as the piston was coming up for the compression stroke. I had pulled the distributor cap off so I could see the location of the rotor as I turned the engine. I started with the mark on the harmonic balancer at top dead center, but not knowing if this was actually the compression or exhaust stroke for cylinder #1. The position of the rotor was indicating that it was the top of the exhaust stroke for cylinder #1, for as it was pointing at cylinder #4, which would have been the end of its compression stroke.

As I turned the engine over with the socket, the gauge started showing compression as there was pressure building. As such, I knew that my distributor was 180 degrees out. If my distributor was correct, there would not have been any compression as the exhaust valve would have been open when the mark on the balancer passed top dead center. Remember that the camshaft which drives the distributor is rotating at half the rpm's of the crankshaft. This is why one can be 180 degrees out, as the timing mark on the balancer will pass the stationary mark on the block twice with one revolution of the camshaft.

I was not able just to switch wires as some of you suggested, as I had a custom set and they were specific lengths for the distributor being in a factory position. I pulled the distributor, rotated the rotor 180 degrees, keeping the housing in the same position as it was and put it back in. Started right up.
When the engine is being cranked by the starter, it sounds like it is spitting back through the intake, but there is no fire like there is with a carburetor. Maybe this is because of the fuel injection?

I also tried some starter fluid to no avail. This is why I think it may be a timing issue.

So, should I pull the distributor and turn the engine 180 degrees, re-install it and try to start or would this be a bad idea? I can't pull the valve cover as the intake manifold prevents me from getting the two inboard bolts. With the intake manifold right over the top of the valve cover, it looks like I might not be able to pull it anyway.

I'm all ears. Any way to determine TDC without removing the valve cover? I'm sure I am not the first one to have done this, but I couldn't seem to find anything like what I need.

Thanks...

[This message has been edited by eti engineer (edited 10-17-2021).]

Patrick OCT 17, 10:37 PM

quote
Originally posted by eti engineer:

My reasoning was that as I turned it over, I should be able to see some compression reading on the gauge as the piston was coming up for the compression stroke.



I still think that using a finger from your left hand would've worked... but maybe my arms are longer than yours. Glad you got it sorted out.


quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Take #1 spark plug out, turn crank by hand with finger in spark plug hole...


[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-18-2021).]

oneinch OCT 20, 07:51 AM
The time to mark 0° or TDC is when you installed your timing set. Short of degreeing the cam you would have been dead on accurate. If you have to tear it down, check TDC this way.

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Stanton
'88 Formula, red on gray