Trouble bleeding the brakes after a brake upgrade.. (Page 2/3)
Patrick MAY 09, 01:53 AM

quote
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney:

Bleed the calipers starting from the one furthermost from the master cylinder. This is actually the RR because of the way the brakelines run. Then LR, RF, and LF.



...

This is getting too weird.

I don't know if your Fiero in Australia has been modified (everything swapped sides) for right-hand drive or what.... but from the factory, the Left Rear brake caliper is the furthest along the brake line from the master cylinder.



[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-09-2020).]

Mike in Sydney MAY 09, 07:18 AM
Patrick, I stand corrected. You got me on the length. But the recommended bleeding wheel sequence for bleeding is Right Rear, Left Rear, Right Front, and Left Front. My source is page BRAKES 5-7, step 4 in the manual bleed instructions in the '86 Factory Service Manual. (The '87 FSM shows the same sequence page BRAKES 5-9.) I've always used this sequence but I'm interested to know if going LR, RR, RF, LF is better.

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Mike in Sydney

fieroguru MAY 09, 08:05 AM
If the rear bleeder screws are not at the top, you might try removing one of the caliper bolts and rotating the caliper up to get the bleeder screw in the the proper location.

Also, check the rear calipers. The parking brake system within the caliper determines where the piston comes to rest when the pedal is released. If there is more than 2 playing cards gap, then every time you push the pedal, the first thing that happens is you will have to push the pistons to the rotor before any pressure builds, which means you will have a very soft pedal for the first several inches of travel.

The method I use for bleeding is use a pop bottle, fill 1" in the bottom with brake fluid, drill a hole in the cap and install a hose. Submerge the hose in the bottle and connect the other end to the bleeder. Crack the bleeder open and slowly press the brake pedal to the floor. This will push air/brake fluid out the hose and into the bottle. The submerged hose will keep air from being pulled back in on pedal release (using grease on the threads of the bleeder will help get an air tight seal). I normally cycle the pedal 3 times over about 3 minutes, then let it gravity bleed for 5 minutes, close the bleeder, then press the pedal once before moving on the next.

The key to any bleeding process is go slow. If there is air in the system, any quick movement of the fluid will bust up large air pockets into hundreds of little air bubbles which you will never get out. If that happens, you have to wait 30 minutes for the bubbles to consolidate into larger bubbles and do it again... slowly.
Dennis LaGrua MAY 09, 12:19 PM

quote
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney:

Patrick, I stand corrected. You got me on the length. But the recommended bleeding wheel sequence for bleeding is Right Rear, Left Rear, Right Front, and Left Front. My source is page BRAKES 5-7, step 4 in the manual bleed instructions in the '86 Factory Service Manual. (The '87 FSM shows the same sequence page BRAKES 5-9.) I've always used this sequence but I'm interested to know if going LR, RR, RF, LF is better.




I follow the procedure outlined in the factory Helms manual starting from the right rear.

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Lambo nut MAY 09, 12:27 PM

quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:


I follow the procedure outlined in the factory Helms manual starting from the right rear.




Which may work but the manual is wrong. You don't get into unconventional brake bleeding techniques until you get into the newer abs cars.

[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 05-09-2020).]

Patrick MAY 09, 04:40 PM

quote
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney:

...the recommended bleeding wheel sequence for bleeding is Right Rear, Left Rear, Right Front, and Left Front. My source is page BRAKES 5-7, step 4 in the manual bleed instructions in the '86 Factory Service Manual. I've always used this sequence but I'm interested to know if going LR, RR, RF, LF is better.



Mike, we all seem to agree that bleeding is to be done starting with the furthest caliper from the master... yet there still seems to be this blind allegiance to the service manual when it's obviously wrong!

On a conventional left-hand drive vehicle, the brake master cylinder is towards the Left Front. The rear brake line then tees off somewhere in the back. If the tee is closer to the left side, which isn't unusual as the brake line often runs down the same side (left) as the master, then the furthest caliper is the Right Rear.




If the tee is in the middle, then it really isn't critical at all which rear caliper is bled first.



It was therefore safe to state in 99.99% of all service manuals (for left-hand drive vehicles) that the bleeding sequence should be Right Rear, Left Rear, Right Front, Left Front. The Fiero is an oddball however, as the rear tee is literally only a few inches from the Right Rear caliper. There is no doubt then that the Left Rear caliper on our Fieros is the furthest from the brake master.

Yes, the Fiero factory service manuals are indeed wrong! We've had more than 30 years to recognize this error... and to act accordingly!
dremu MAY 09, 05:50 PM
I too want to hold the FSM as high and mighty ... but then I find things like

"Parking brake levers (2) on both calipes should be against the lever stops on the calilper housings." [1987 FSM, page 5B83 Parking Brake Adjustment section 6.]

So is it a "caliper", a "calipe", or a "calilper"? If Pontiac couldn't be bothered to even proof-read their stuff at the most basic level, how do we do know the technical information is at all accurate? Grumble.

A calipe sounds like a French breakfast dish ... and a calilper is what, a caliper from Liliput?

I am so thankful for Internet forums and Fiero nerds like y'all.

-- A

[This message has been edited by dremu (edited 05-09-2020).]

Threedog MAY 09, 09:06 PM
I cant tell yall how much help this has been. I will attempt to remove the seville brakes and gravity bleed, thank you guys so much!
Mike in Sydney MAY 09, 09:17 PM
LOL. Dang, Mother McCree. What a hornets nest I've opened without meaning to. Now we're at Right rear 1st, Left rear 1st, FSM misprints & errors.

I see the logic in starting with the left rear. I've not done it that way and I've never had a problem following the FSM sequence (maybe I've been lucky?). I will try the LR, RR, RF, LF sequence the next time I have to bleed the brakes on one. That's the great thing about this Forum, ideas and information. Heck, I've had a Fiero or two since 1989 and this Forum has helped me keep them running.

Anyway, back to the original topic, IMO, sequence not withstanding, the correct way to bleed Seville calipers mounted on the rear is to take the caliper off the mount, insert a shim equal to or marginally thicker than the rotor between the pads, turn the caliper so the bleed screw is on top, bleed the caliper and reinstall, and check and adjust the parking brake.

As Forest Gump said, "And that's all I have to say about that."

Y'all take care and be safe.

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Mike in Sydney

[This message has been edited by Mike in Sydney (edited 05-09-2020).]

Threedog MAY 15, 01:59 PM
So, I had the calipers removed and bled with a shim, but now I have another issue, the pedal wont come back up. The brakes are super responsive and work fantastically, but the pedal takes a few seconds to return. Any ideas?