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| The White Bug (Page 18/46) |
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pmbrunelle
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JUL 05, 10:14 PM
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Spinning the oil pump with my priming tool, I see oil coming out of all 12 pushrods.
| quote | Originally posted by La fiera:
The more pressure is exerted on ZDDP the more drag it develops between the sliding surfaces and that drag can induce overheating of parts |
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From the oil coking near the pivot (and blueing of the rocker), we see that there was overheating due to excess friction. Everything goes downhill once there's overheating, so anything to reduce friction (and therefore heat) will help.
The other key element that affects the overheating is RPM; I am not sure if my tests in the 5000+ RPM range are too much for ball-pivot rockers.
I guess you don't add any extra additives to the Liqui-Moly oil in the picture? You use it straight from the bottle, or you still add your WS2 to it? This oil seems to be available in Canada.
I'm not sure if I should retry with brand-new rockers (the same as what I have now) and better oil, or if I should look into roller rockers right away.[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 07-05-2020).]
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La fiera
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JUL 05, 10:18 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
Spinning the oil pump with my priming tool, I see oil coming out of all 12 pushrods.
From the oil coking near the pivot (and blueing of the rocker), we see that there was overheating due to excess friction. Everything goes downhill once there's overheating, so anything to reduce friction (and therefore heat) will help.
The other key element that affects the overheating is RPM; I am not sure if my tests in the 5000+ RPM range are too much for ball-pivot rockers.
I guess you don't add any extra additives to the Liqui-Moly oil in the picture? You use it straight from the bottle, or you still add your WS2 to it? This oil seems to be available in Canada.
I'm not sure if I should retry with brand-new rockers (the same as what I have now) and better oil, or if I should look into roller rockers right away.
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If I were you I replace all the new rockers and balls. With this Liqui Moly you don't have to add anyting else. It has 1100ppm Phosphorous and 1200ppm zinc and about 900ppm Mos2.[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 07-05-2020).]
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ericjon262
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JUL 06, 02:15 AM
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old school hotrodders used to add grooves to the rocker balls to improve oiling, the downside though, is that the load is not higher on the contacting areas. I wasn't really concerned for my engine, more just trying to get more insight as to what the cause is. whats your valve adjustment procedure? ------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
cognita semper
https://joj2020.com/ <--- She isn't a sexual predator.
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Will
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JUL 06, 08:45 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
The other key element that affects the overheating is RPM; I am not sure if my tests in the 5000+ RPM range are too much for ball-pivot rockers.
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The 2.8 in my Formula has 240,000 miles. It sees 6000 RPM pretty much every time I drive it. I didn't see anything obvious when I resealed the valve covers a couple of years ago.
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La fiera
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JUL 06, 01:10 PM
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Summit Racing just came out with this oil and they have different viscosity also, its hi on ZDDP. Fantastic for the flat tapped V6.
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pmbrunelle
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JUL 06, 06:39 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by ericjon262:
old school hotrodders used to add grooves to the rocker balls to improve oiling, the downside though, is that the load is not higher on the contacting areas.
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You can buy balls that are already grooved out of the package. Actually, the ball in the picture above used to have four equally spaced grooves. On one side, the ball wore down so much that the groove vanished. I'll probably use the same grooved balls again; they come in the package with the rockers.
| quote | Originally posted by ericjon262:
whats your valve adjustment procedure?
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First, I make sure that I'm on the base circle for the valve I want to adjust.
I find zero lash by wiggling the pushrod end-to-end as I tighten the nut; when I stop feeling movement, that's zero lash.
The spec of the Crower lifter is to push in the plunger 0.040" +/- 0.020" beyond zero lash. With my 24 TPI rocker stud and 1.52 rocker ratio, I have to turn the nut 208° to hit 0.040". I rounded that to 7/12ths of a turn, and then eyeballed it. I might aim towards the upper end of the allowable preload range this time; not sure yet.
| quote | Originally posted by Will:
The 2.8 in my Formula has 240,000 miles. It sees 6000 RPM pretty much every time I drive it. I didn't see anything obvious when I resealed the valve covers a couple of years ago.
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But that's for short bursts, right? I don't know if the thermal mass of the rocker + ball would allow it to absorb the friction work without much temperature rise.
To collect data to tune the VE(RPM, MAP) lookup table, I maintain a particular RPM (corresponding to a column in the table) with the brake pedal, and I slowly press the throttle until WOT, then I slowly release the throttle. With the slow throttle movement I traverse the MAP rows for a given RPM. The apply/release cycle takes maybe 10 seconds.
So I don't know if this use case of mine is tougher than "normal use", whatever that may be. Still easier than a top speed run I guess? Fieros can survive top speed runs without ruining their rockers, right? Well now my VE table is fairly well sorted out, I shouldn't have to do much of that anymore.
| quote | Originally posted by La fiera:
So, if you want to have a long lasting engine regardless is a street or performance engine, specially if you use the old flat tapped cam design the best oil you can buy is:
https://www.fcpeuro.com/pub...-14y7n8p.?1546899546
I personally use this oil for break-in of my engines, that's how good it is!
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Nearby garage Momentum Motorsport will have a bottle of 10W-40 with MoS2 Anti-Friction ready for me tomorrow morning:
https://mmsportmtl.com/
Grease loaded with MoS2 saved my butt with a wear problem at work (versus grease without it), so I have faith that simply changing the oil could make a big difference.[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 07-06-2020).]
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La fiera
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JUL 06, 08:34 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
I guess you don't add any extra additives to the Liqui-Moly oil in the picture? You use it straight from the bottle, or you still add your WS2 to it? This oil seems to be available in Canada.
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You don't have to use anything else.
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pmbrunelle
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JUL 07, 07:04 PM
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After a long time in the mail, today I received higher flow fuel injectors from La Fiera. Thank you. In the spirit of sharing parts, tonight I will be carefully packaging a Fiero part for ericjon262.
I got the Liqui Moly oil today. It is expensive compared to Canadian Tire stuff. Cheaper than new rocker arms though... those haven't yet arrived.
In the interest of changing only one thing at a time, I won't install the fuel injectors at the same time as my replacement rockers. When we try to make too many changes at once, we become lost, and no longer understand what we are doing.
Also, my dad wants to build a fuel injector test jig, so that will be a project for us to do together before installing the injectors.
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La fiera
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JUL 07, 08:21 PM
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Awesome!!! I'm the same way, one thing at a time so I can keep track of my progress. That's nice you are working with your dad on this project.
Sadly I lost my dad 2 years ago and I miss him dearly. He was a car guy, an engineer. The first time he heard the 3.4 start he was all giggles!
Enjoy you dad while you can and I'm glad I can help on reaching your goals! 
Rei Moloon
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pmbrunelle
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JUL 11, 11:52 PM
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I installed replacement rocker arms and the car is running again, for now!
I did not use the Comp Cams break-in lube that cam with the rocker arm set.
From its MSDS, the Comp Cams lube contains (non-exhaustive list):
ZINC DITHIOPHOSPHATE
PARAFFINIC PETROLEUM OIL
ANTHRAQUINONE DYE
If it is true that my rocker arms failed due to excess friction from a ZDDP overdose, then I should avoid using the Comp Cams lube, like I used during the initial engine assembly.
Anyway, repeating the same procedures and expecting different results doesn't make sense, so something had to change. I primed the oil pump with the drill until I saw the gray Liqui Moly oil flooding the rocker arms. I did not mix any additives into the oil. Three hours after priming (I didn't want the Liqui Moly to drain away for the first start), I started the engine and went on a half-hour ride, keeping the RPM between 1500 and 3500 RPM.
I will keep the RPMs low for the next 500 km or so, to give the chance to the parts to wear into each other. After the wearing-in, friction should be reduced, then I should be able to spin the engine to 6000 RPM without overheating the rockers (hopefully).
If these ball-and-socket rockers fail again I will probably look into installing roller rockers.[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 07-11-2020).]
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