still overheating and being weird (Page 10/16)
cartercarbaficionado JUL 25, 06:55 PM

quote
Originally posted by Yellow-88:

Hi

I find it entertaining to listen to "kids" talk about cars and I'm sure you'll get a kick looking back at yourself from the future.

Tell you what; design an entire car, even with a factory behind you, then talk about stupid design.


idk man the fiero is designed weird for a rear mid engined car. gm just didn't let pontiac have the freedom they needed to make a reliable corvette killer that could survive the lacking maintenance that was becoming commonplace at the time. it was just supposed to work and that caused issues
Yellow-88 JUL 25, 10:18 PM

quote
Originally posted by cartercarbaficionado:

idk man the fiero is designed weird for a rear mid engined car. gm just didn't let pontiac have the freedom they needed to make a reliable corvette killer that could survive the lacking maintenance that was becoming commonplace at the time. it was just supposed to work and that caused issues



I think the early design is brilliant on a budget but it's not a sports car. It wasn't intended to be. It was a "proof of concept" project about interchangeable pre-painted plastic body panels. Apparently the designers did have some freedom. An affordable mid engine 2 seater commuter car while we're at it? Why not go for it. Just don't put the Chevy name on it. It's a production prototype. Pontiac is where GM tried interesting stuff.

The 88 is a completely different animal. The chassis is the real thing. The 88 Fiero Formula is a true sports car.
I like the conspiracy theory; that the Corvette guys at GM "accidently" found an 89 Fiero prototype parked on the proving grounds and took it for a ride.
What .. ? no 89 Fiero? Just a fun theory.
Additivewalnut JUL 26, 09:08 AM

quote
Originally posted by Yellow-88:

Hi

I find it entertaining to listen to "kids" talk about cars and I'm sure you'll get a kick looking back at yourself from the future.

Tell you what; design an entire car, even with a factory behind you, then talk about stupid design.



Hey, I never said I could do it better than the coked up engineers of the 80s. Having worked on cars from the 60s, all the way up to modern day, I can say comfortably that the Fiero (and every other 80s car, frankly) is just weirdly designed and not really built for the every man to fix on. There's a weird trend that started in the 80s of making the engine bay small and the engine *just* big enough to make taking the valve covers off almost impossible with the engine in the car.

The Fiero (at least 84-87) is in your own words, "A proof of concept car." It drives like one, and working on it really shows that concept. Things like opening the decklid when it's wet dumps water directly on the exhaust manifold and cracks it, the unventilated hood becoming causing front end lift anywhere past 75, the parts bin suspension that has rear hubs and sealed bearings and front rotor/hub combos with older style tapered bearings, no rear sway bar, manual steering, rubber cradle bushings, a vent for the battery that just dumps water all over it + a vent that dumps water on top of the air cleaner assembly and eventually rusts it out, 84's 4 cylinder catching fire because they put too shallow of an oil pan on and didn't change the length of the dipstick. It just feels like 1st gen cars weren't built with the idea that it would still be around 40 years later, yknow?

Plus, I understand it's an old car with not a TON of aftermarket support but like good lord. I feel as though it's a bad sign when the upgrades for this car involve brakes from a Grand Am, master cylinders from Chevy Blazers, headlight motors from a Firebird, the perfect engine for this chassis being a Buick V6, etc. This car could've been so much better using ONLY parts that already existed from other cars that were available at the same time as the Fiero.

The 84-87 Fieros are not perfect cars and I don't think it's possible to make them perfect. A sad reality that I live in as I dump thousands of dollars into this thing to still get beat by a stock Miata. I've never had the privilege to drive an 88, I really want to, and I'm sure a 3800 88 would be on par if not better than any sports car of the 80s or 90s, possibly even the early 2000s. But 1st gen Fieros are JUNK. Very fun, very unique junk, but junk in comparison.
Patrick JUL 26, 02:28 PM

quote
Originally posted by Additivewalnut:

...currently restoring a 67 Caprice



PM sent.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-26-2024).]

Yellow-88 JUL 27, 01:07 PM

quote
Originally posted by Additivewalnut:


Hey, I never said I could do it better than the coked up engineers of the 80s. Having worked on cars from the 60s, all the way up to modern day, I can say comfortably that the Fiero (and every other 80s car, frankly) is just weirdly designed and not really built for the every man to fix on. There's a weird trend that started in the 80s of making the engine bay small and the engine *just* big enough to make taking the valve covers off almost impossible with the engine in the car.

The Fiero (at least 84-87) is in your own words, "A proof of concept car." It drives like one, and working on it really shows that concept. Things like opening the decklid when it's wet dumps water directly on the exhaust manifold and cracks it, the unventilated hood becoming causing front end lift anywhere past 75, the parts bin suspension that has rear hubs and sealed bearings and front rotor/hub combos with older style tapered bearings, no rear sway bar, manual steering, rubber cradle bushings, a vent for the battery that just dumps water all over it + a vent that dumps water on top of the air cleaner assembly and eventually rusts it out, 84's 4 cylinder catching fire because they put too shallow of an oil pan on and didn't change the length of the dipstick. It just feels like 1st gen cars weren't built with the idea that it would still be around 40 years later, yknow?

Plus, I understand it's an old car with not a TON of aftermarket support but like good lord. I feel as though it's a bad sign when the upgrades for this car involve brakes from a Grand Am, master cylinders from Chevy Blazers, headlight motors from a Firebird, the perfect engine for this chassis being a Buick V6, etc. This car could've been so much better using ONLY parts that already existed from other cars that were available at the same time as the Fiero.

The 84-87 Fieros are not perfect cars and I don't think it's possible to make them perfect. A sad reality that I live in as I dump thousands of dollars into this thing to still get beat by a stock Miata. I've never had the privilege to drive an 88, I really want to, and I'm sure a 3800 88 would be on par if not better than any sports car of the 80s or 90s, possibly even the early 2000s. But 1st gen Fieros are JUNK. Very fun, very unique junk, but junk in comparison.



Yes, I know what your saying. What I'm saying is that, you have no idea what goes on in a design department. My viewpoint is this. In my last career as a design consultant, I was the guy who got called to the conference room to face several worried faces and thick, dog-eared folders on the table. I did have an advantage because I was the outsider unburdened by the established thinking bogging down progress on a project, but I got to see the nasty inside of "corporate" design. It's actually difficult to imagine the issues facing a brand new car. Just because your the head of design backed by an enthusiastic, talented team of car people and a vast parts bin, doesn't mean you get to do what you want. I think they did a remarkable job considering they worked for GM. If their goal was to build a Corvette killer, it would have been easy and they where well on the way with the 88 chassis. Make no mistake, the 88 chassis is a completely new design from the early cars. I'm amazed that a lot of Fiero people still don't know that.

I think it's sad that early engine problems and no chance in competition doomed what could have been an actual American Sports Car. The Fiero died only 4 years after birth. I'm sure there were some painful tears shed over that tragedy.

I think the best way to look at the Fiero is as a "kit Car". The 88 chassis is the perfect platform to start with if you want to build a serious mid engine car. Yes it's GM with all the clumsy overstuffed "American consumer appeal" but the Designers dream is defiantly in it. The overstuffed clumsy part is easy to remove.

I agree about the pre-88. Don't waste your time and money. Again, brilliant on a budget but not at all a sports car. If your looking to beat a Miata, buy an old lotus, or a Miata. (A Miata is a Japanese Lotus Elan.) Or ... start with a 88 base coupe and make it's designers proud.



Yellow-88 JUL 29, 12:21 PM
Hi

This thread was originally about overheating. Looking back at it I think I see the story.

New car with multiple unknown problems. A enthusiastic young car guy jumps in with both feet and goes for the most difficult solution before going through a diagnostic procedure. He gets stuck on one possible problem not knowing if that's actually it. Most likely the real problem was in the T-Stat housing or the radiator cap all along.
That's step one in the Diagnostic procedure outlined in the "book".

As I said earlier, problem solving is a process. It's a skill absolutely necessary for an auto technician. Especially if you "rescue" old cars for fun or for profit.

So is the cooling problem finally solved?
cartercarbaficionado JUL 29, 02:29 PM

quote
Originally posted by Yellow-88:

Hi

This thread was originally about overheating. Looking back at it I think I see the story.

New car with multiple unknown problems. A enthusiastic young car guy jumps in with both feet and goes for the most difficult solution before going through a diagnostic procedure. He gets stuck on one possible problem not knowing if that's actually it. Most likely the real problem was in the T-Stat housing or the radiator cap all along.
That's step one in the Diagnostic procedure outlined in the "book".

As I said earlier, problem solving is a process. It's a skill absolutely necessary for an auto technician. Especially if you "rescue" old cars for fun or for profit.

So is the cooling problem finally solved?


vehicle is currently rendered inoperable due to the new exhaust snapping all the y pipe bolts and breaking the egr tube during a drive. looks like it was doing fine but a noise got louder from lthe pulley of the water pump so the crappy autozone water pump bearing is dead. so as this noise has finally had its source identified I can say for certain that every new part that has been bought has been dead or failing withing 500 miles of installation.
this rumbling/crunchy noise was blamed on the alternator originally btw since that had been charging at over 16 volts for a bit no matter what we did and the fix was drenching it in lubricant around the brush area and smacking it with a wrench.
Yellow-88 JUL 29, 09:21 PM

quote
Originally posted by cartercarbaficionado:

vehicle is currently rendered inoperable due to the new exhaust snapping all the y pipe bolts and breaking the egr tube during a drive. looks like it was doing fine but a noise got louder from lthe pulley of the water pump so the crappy autozone water pump bearing is dead. so as this noise has finally had its source identified I can say for certain that every new part that has been bought has been dead or failing withing 500 miles of installation.
this rumbling/crunchy noise was blamed on the alternator originally btw since that had been charging at over 16 volts for a bit no matter what we did and the fix was drenching it in lubricant around the brush area and smacking it with a wrench.



So ... the new exhaust snapped all the Y-pipe bolts? The exhaust did that ? How?
Water pump bearing failure; is the belt to tight?
Did you get a stethoscope yet? It's really good at "feeling" bearing issues even at the very early stages of failure.

Why does every part you buy fail? Are you the only one installing the new parts?
cartercarbaficionado JUL 30, 03:51 AM

quote
Originally posted by Yellow-88:


So ... the new exhaust snapped all the Y-pipe bolts? The exhaust did that ? How?
Water pump bearing failure; is the belt to tight?
Did you get a stethoscope yet? It's really good at "feeling" bearing issues even at the very early stages of failure.

Why does every part you buy fail? Are you the only one installing the new parts?


not sure. it was the original y pipe bolts other than a brand new grade 13 I put in to replace a previously snapped one (snapped upon removal) I'm assuming the ocelot exhaust fitting like absolute garbage is to blame and was putting extra stress on the downpipe area.
belt is actually quite loose. the maximum adjustment for the alternator is barely enough to keep it from slipping and squealing just a little water on it causes it to absolutely scream so it's fine trust me.
don't need a stethoscope to hear the wster pump bearing grind when just opening the decklid is enough to hear it. spun by hand after removing the belt is enough to feel it crunch..
and yeah? if I'm following the manual and the headgaskets and manifolds plus the suspension and entire new radiator (right after I got the car it sprung a leak so a new old stock one was in order) so I'm pretty darn sure it's not my fault st this point.
especially since the wster pump on my 95 gtp and blazer (installed around the same time and serpentine with auto tensioners) have also failed or started to fail around this time I have reason to believe it's the parts I'm buying since it's all duralast garbage
cartercarbaficionado AUG 07, 06:51 PM
it might be fixed?.. the Guage still doesn't work at all but at least it doesn't shut itself off after driving for 20 minutes.
I'm pretty sure it's the water pump since it shut up and stopped groaning so I'll be replacing it with a fiero store one.
also a friend bought a purple 88 formula that needs suspension and a water pump but otherwise won't overheat so if I put a pump in and it starts overheating I'll know the real issues I'm facing. it's a car put together by someone who's done quite a few 4.9 swaps so It's coming from a good place

[This message has been edited by cartercarbaficionado (edited 08-07-2024).]