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| 2nd Battalion 7th Marines in LA (Page 1/3) |
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NewDustin
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JUN 16, 09:22 AM
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I'm curious for you alls views on this. I served with 2/7 in Fallujah (and 3/7 in Ramadi before that), and this hits pretty close to home for me. If you all have read anything I've written here about the military, you'll know I have a pretty strong affinity for General James Mattis, and as in most things I agree strongly with his take here:
| quote | | We must reject any thinking of our cities as a 'battlespace' that our uniformed military is called upon to 'dominate.' |
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| quote | | We do not need to militarize our response to protests. |
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My take here isn't based on support for the protests...while I do support the idea behind them I do not support burning your city down to make that point...but rather on understanding what Marines are. When I was in bootcamp, combat training, and in all the work-ups, trainings, and field exercises I ever did, I was never once trained in de-escalation. I was given extremely brief courses on how to detain a combatant, but not in any way that would respect a US citizens rights. What I was trained on was suppressive fire, to turn and advance on a flanking enemy, to fire on command, to put two shots center mass and one in the head...I was trained to win battles in combat zones, no matter the circumstances, or die trying.
Fun fact: There is no Marine Corps doctrine for retreat or surrender. The only Marine unit that has even been involved in a surrender, the 4th Marines, were surrendered by the Army unit they were attached to, and subsequently stripped of their colors, cut from the Marines Corps like a cancer, and replaced entirely with Marine Raiders (the first Marine Corps Spec Ops) to restore their honor. You send the Marines in to kill your enemies, especially when you want them good and dead right now. That's what the Marine Corps is for, it is our express purpose and one of the things that separates us from any other branch of the military.
Sending those men in to police civilians neither honors the sacrifice it takes to be that force, nor protects the cities or civilians they are being sent to protect. When Bush sent in the Marines to quell the Rodney King riots, we sent 200 rounds down range, at civilians, because some ignorant cop said "cover me." That is how Marines provide cover. My heart goes out to the guys that are out there. The ROEs never make sense when they are against US civilians, their training specifically is very poorly suited to this environment, and this does not honor their legacy as warriors. That last one may mean less to some than it means to Marine veterans, but I personally gave quite a bit to that legacy.[This message has been edited by NewDustin (edited 06-16-2025).]
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82-T/A [At Work]
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JUN 16, 09:42 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
Sending those men in to police civilians neither honors the sacrifice it takes to be that force, nor protects the cities or civilians they are being sent to protect.
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The Marines were sent in to protect Federal buildings... they aren't in the streets with the protestors... that part seems to get lost in a lot of the news reporting.
The National Guard are the ones that are in the streets working with the police. It was also done intentionally so that any actions done towards the National Guard becomes a Federal crime, and then the DOJ would have authority over the prosecution and conviction of those individuals they arrest. The problem is that the local DAs in California usually give them a slap on the wrist, etc., and then let them go. The DOJ intends to fully prosecute.
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NewDustin
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JUN 16, 10:08 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
The Marines were sent in to protect Federal buildings... they aren't in the streets with the protestors... that part seems to get lost in a lot of the news reporting.
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I understand this, but it is a semantic difference in the role they are playing. What I mentioned above actually happened: Marines sent 200 rounds down range, at civilians, because some ignorant cop said "cover me." I just don't think that force is used properly by securing buildings from civilians during civil unrest, it's who you send in when you want everyone dead. The National Guard is already there, securing those buildings is well within their warrant, and they are trained to do so without all the "Blood makes the grass grow! Kill! Kill! Kill!" that is drilled into Marines from day 1.
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blackrams
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JUN 16, 10:33 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
When I was in bootcamp, combat training, and in all the work-ups, trainings, and field exercises I ever did, I was never once trained in de-escalation. I was given extremely brief courses on how to detain a combatant, but not in any way that would respect a US citizens rights. What I was trained on was suppressive fire, to turn and advance on a flanking enemy, to fire on command, to put two shots center mass and one in the head...I was trained to win battles in combat zones, no matter the circumstances, or die trying.
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While it was long ago, this description is pretty much as I remember. Marines are generally not trained for such duties and if things were to go south at those federal buildings, I would fully expect Marine training to kick in.
But, I also will say that while serving, I and the unit I was assigned to were security for "Special" things at our location. Several times a year there would be anti-Viet Nam Protests just outside our gates and fences. We Marines were the last line of defense for our area and did get some (let's call it) Protest Training. But, what's most important was when these protests did occur the local LEOs and CA HP were between our fence/gates and the protesters. We also had K9s that were brought in just for these events. I can assure you, no protester ever got past our fences and for their sake, that was a good thing. We were authorized to maintain security in our mission. Define that however you wish, no one was going to be allowed to cross that line.
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Rams
Learning most of life's lessons the hard way. . 
You are only young once but, you can be immature indefinitely.
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cliffw
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JUN 16, 10:44 AM
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Marines are trained to follow orders. Not just kill kill kill. There superior officer should be the one telling them to kill kill kill. Not some cop who says"cover me". The superior officer gets orders from his superior officer. The 'mission' should be well defined.
Did the Marines in the Rodney King LA riots take a life of a civilian. Not that I know of.
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cliffw
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JUN 16, 10:48 AM
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I should have mentioned I think the Marines at the ICE protests were just there as a intimidating presence.
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Doug85GT
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JUN 16, 11:19 AM
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If Marines cannot be trained to protect a building, maybe they should all be removed from our diplomatic buildings overseas. I had no idea that after all of these decades of marine guards at our diplomatic buildings that they were all ticking time bombs just waiting for a local cop to give a bad order and then the slaughter of civilians begins.
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NewDustin
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JUN 16, 11:22 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
Marines are trained to follow orders. Not just kill kill kill. There superior officer should be the one telling them to kill kill kill. Not some cop who says"cover me". The superior officer gets orders from his superior officer. The 'mission' should be well defined.
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A lot of this is very true, but not exactly how things work. A platoon will generally have an officer, but the squads will be led by a corporal or a sergeant , who is going to be a 20-year old, young Marine themself. While obedience to orders is absolutely instilled in Marines, so is the ability to recognize and respond to needs within a combat zone. If I received a call for cover, then ran off to find my platoon sergeant or OIC to confirm the order, a lot of folks would die for needing cover fire.
The "kill kill kill" thing is actually a very common Marine Corps chant, and is used throughout bootcamp. The ability to engage and kill without hesitation is imperative on the battlefield, and it is hammered into every single Marine -cook, radio operator, and infantryman- from day one. This scene from Full Metal Jacket is absurdly close to what I experienced, and drives the point home:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsUtIWzRkQI
| quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
Did the Marines in the Rodney King LA riots take a life of a civilian. Not that I know of. |
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See above about the 200 rounds of "cover me" fire we sent at civilians. I don't think the Marines would purposefully kill civilians, but our training is not based around keeping folks alive.[This message has been edited by NewDustin (edited 06-16-2025).]
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Doug85GT
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JUN 16, 11:24 AM
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I found video footage of a marine embassy guard brutalizing a civilian!
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NewDustin
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JUN 16, 11:30 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Doug85GT:
If Marines cannot be trained to protect a building, maybe they should all be removed from our diplomatic buildings overseas. I had no idea that after all of these decades of marine guards at our diplomatic buildings that they were all ticking time bombs just waiting for a local cop to give a bad order and then the slaughter of civilians begins. |
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Doug over here thinking every Marine duty -and every Marine- is exactly the same 
In order to get that duty you have to have at least 2 years of existing exemplary service, be an NCO, be extensively screened both for your conduct and for specific psychological profiles, and THEN attend comprehensive, long-term training on how to act in that role specifically. They are then re-classified into 8156s - literally "Marine Security Guard (MSG)"
It would be an absolute insult to send that force in to guard federal buildings they have nothing to do with.[This message has been edited by NewDustin (edited 06-16-2025).]
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