2022 CONGRESSIONAL MIDTERM ELECTIONS (Page 7/10)
sourmash JAN 11, 06:34 PM

quote
Originally posted by ray b:

no I was thinking that trumpisum is NOT a form of western liberal democracy at it's very core
it is something that is a much darker evil lurking there

it is a form we have seen before and had to fight a war against in europe just a bit before I was born




Trump.had his Son In-Law running his policy directives. You arent being anti-Semitic are you?

Idk, but was it actually a war for giving the Soviet communists half of Europe? A war to preserve and re-emcumber Germany to international central banks? A war to squander the British empire and kill off 10s of millions of Europeans?
So they can now be force injected with an experimental jab and forced locked down because some fat people arent healthy enough to shake it off like they should be able to.
sourmash JAN 11, 06:39 PM

quote
Originally posted by ray b:

you know there are very good reasons we call our system '' western liberal democracy''

if you do not understand each part and how the parts fit together you could think the trump was a good idea
but then you DO NOT WANT western liberal democracy you want something unamerican to gain an advantage or because you are afraid



I want a return of something more like the original intent of the signers of the founding documents.

Trump is just a civic nationalist. Better than most major names in either of the 2 major parties.
theBDub JAN 11, 06:53 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


I hear what you're saying, but what you're doing seems to be opposite of this.

I see you're living in Dallas Texas right now. Just a question, but weren't you living in California several years ago? Why did you move? Not just for work I suspect?


If I try hard enough, I could convince anyone that my views are "classically liberal" and that really I'm a Democrat... despite the fact I used to vote as one.

Sometimes we also assimilate to a set of believes that someone has already built for us... are you doing this as a "libertarian?"

Party leaders will come and go and change things as they please... but the Oxford dictionary understanding of a Libertarian is:

"...an advocate or supporter of a political philosophy that advocates only minimal state intervention in the free market and the private lives of citizens."


That simply could just not be any more further from the truth. No matter how much you are trying to convince us, or yourself... that you support neither the totally evil Republicans, or the temporarily uncool Democrats, the fact is... you could not possibly be anything further from a libertarian than you are with the statements you've made... by anyone's definition.


I would simply say you are a disenfranchised Democrat voter... your ideals absolutely adhere to the Democrats, and even if you don't like the title, that's what you are.



I don't know why you're focused on what you want to interpret my beliefs to be, instead of just reading what I've already posted.

I advocate and support for minimal state intervention in the free market and the private lives of citizens, that's a very good and accurate baseline. This will take me awhile, so unless you're really interested in a specific topic, you're going to have to let the Libertarian Party speak for me in some cases. Let me go back through my list:


quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

Where I align with Democrats:
  • Abortion
  • Voting rights
  • Immigration
  • LGBTQ+ rights, and similar things I'd associate with the First Amendment, as we have a right from religion just as much as a right for religion
  • Capital Punishment
  • Generally, more lax sentences for crime
  • Privacy and internet protections
  • Social justice (I oppose most government action in this area, except where government action caused the imbalance, but it's worth mentioning)


Where I align with Republicans:
  • Second amendment
  • Healthcare, kinda
  • Taxes


Where neither party gets me:
  • Military spending
  • Environmental policies, kinda
  • Police reform
  • Justice system reform
  • Education, especially higher education




Where I align with Democrats:
  • Abortion - Bodily autonomy, full stop. The government cannot mandate the use of my body for another individual. The Libertarian Party has the same position.
  • Voting rights - I believe in very easy access to voting, by any citizen, including felons. Furthermore, citizens should be able to vote for all legitimate candidates, and ballot access should not be restricted with ever-changing rules. No candidates should receive any funding, and private parties should be able to voluntarily donate to campaigns without limit. The Libertarian Party has the same positions.
  • Immigration - I've stated multiple times, but I believe in very easy immigration. The Libertarian Party has the same position. To emphasize: Libertarians do not support classifying undocumented immigrants as criminals.
  • LGBTQ+ - The Libertarian Party specifically called for an end to LGBTQ exclusionary laws when it was created in 1972. I'm aligned with their position.
  • Capital Punishment - The State has no authority over my right to life, period. The Libertarian Party doesn't take a specific position on this, but most Libertarians do not support Capital Punishment.
  • Generally, more lax sentences for crime - The Libertarian Party supports abolishment of all victimless crimes, including drugs and sex work, and more lax sentences for other crimes. Their position on this is a good read.
  • Privacy and internet protections - Another one in their platform.
  • Social justice - Along with the Crime and Punishment position that specifically calls out disproportionate punishment, which is most of my social justice stance from a government perspective, I also support social justice from a private perspective. There are a lot of positions that I take privately that go beyond what I believe government should be involved in, but I'm noting this one due to Randy calling it out. My position on social justice is that we should all look to understand how broad societal influences make up who we are as individuals, and how the government has had a role in that, we've all had a role in it. That doesn't mean I support government action to this. In fact, I do not support special classes and support the right of businesses to voluntarily choose who they do and do not provide service to. However, I do believe in talking more about this and understanding ourselves better. Some Libertarians agree with me on this perspective, most do not.

Where I align with Republicans:
  • Second amendment - We all have a right to own property. Expanding on the second amendment, I support an expansion of what we can own. To be honest, theoretically I would love to say we should have no restriction, including a nuclear bomb. But pragmatically, I do realize that's a little nutty, so this is where practically I would support some very limited rules, but you and I will never vote on anything nearing my line in the sand because it's wayyyy out there. I go further than the Libertarian Party on this.
  • Healthcare, kinda - Healthcare is not a right, as it requires action by the healthcare practitioners. No "right" that requires action from another is a true right (this is when I discussed negative vs. positive rights earlier). I believe in negative rights with no positive rights (with the caveats I listed earlier in this thread). The Libertarian Party has the same position.
  • Taxes - We all have a right to own property and make private agreements. Taxation takes my property and agency away. I recognize some taxation is necessary to uphold the country, but it should be limited. The Libertarian Party goes further than I do on this.

Where neither party gets me:
  • Military spending - Drastically reduce, just enough to defend our liberty. The Libertarian Party has the same position.
  • Environmental policies, kinda - I don't believe in government capping greenhouse gasses, or supporting any kind of energy through subsidies. An informed public should choose the companies they support. The Libertarian Party has the same position I would love to see a nice clean earth, that was created through voluntary contract. It is very unlikely to happen because most consumers do not concern themselves with what goes into their products or food, but that doesn't mean we have a right to stomp on the rights of those businesses. If direct harm to neighboring communities can be linked to specific emissions, I do support private party suing for damages. It would be unlikely to ever win though.
  • Police reform - We've been on the train for a lot longer than Democrats. I've been calling for police reform for over a decade.
  • Justice system reform - Same as above, but even clearer evidence of impartiality
  • Education, especially higher education - Education is not a right, and should not be provided for or subsidized by the government. The reason it's so expensive is because we've guaranteed loans to pay for it. It's disgusting. The Libertarian Party has the same position.


As you can see, I am in line with the Libertarian Party on almost every single issue. You can tell me that I'm really a fork because you see a few spokes, but I'm not. Randy can, again, talk about how dumb I am. But I am, by the definition laid out by the Libertarian Party, a Libertarian.

Honestly, this whole thing is a little weird. Why is this so difficult to understand? Is it because the Republicans have changed so much with the rise of Trumpism that they see anything left of right as far left? The Libertarian Party positions have remained relatively unchanged, with exception of a few items like capital punishment. Can you honestly look through everything I've stated and continue to suggest that I'm anything but a Libertarian? If so, my next question has to be... do you believe anyone is a Libertarian, or do you think we're all just Democrats in disguise?
randye JAN 11, 09:54 PM

quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


I don't know why you're focused on what you want to interpret my beliefs to be, instead of just reading what I've already posted.





Oh my God!, Are you really that dimwitted?

We have interpreted your whack-job beliefs PRECISELY from reading all the nonsense you've already posted.


Moreover, just like I said on page one:



quote
Originally posted by randye:

They don't have any real understanding of, and can't coherently articulate, the ideologies of fascism, Marxism / socialism or even classic liberalism or conservatism.


The reason that so many people now "have the ideological IQ of a tree stump" is that they are almost completely "unlettered", a/k/a poorly or marginally educated, ignorant.

They think they know what ideology they, (and by extension others), hold to without ever once having studied it's philosophy.







quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


Randy can, again, talk about how dumb I am.






OK, Since you know it, I will:


You predictably MADE MY POINT FOR ME by spewing a bucket of textual diarrhea that reads like a mediocre high school student's term paper...

...and, as if that wasn't enough, you drove my point further home by simply linking a few lazy, sophomoric, references to lp.org and Wikipedia !

For crissakes, it barely gets much dumber than that.

It's also as obvious as hell that you have never once cracked a book on libertarian political philosophy, or any political philosophy for that matter.

You read a website, made a foolish "oath" and paid your money to belong to a silly "club" that has spent HALF A CENTURY of never getting more than 1% -2% of the vote in any national election.

If THAT isn't the definition of DUMB and GULLIBLE then nothing is.

You're obviously free to believe whatever dumb nonsense you want, even as delusional as what you peddle here, but you're not free to demand that other's participate in your personal delusion and ignorance. or even demand that anyone stop calling it as DUMB as it obviously is.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-11-2022).]

theBDub JAN 11, 10:09 PM

quote
Originally posted by randye:
OK, Since you know it, I will:


You predictably MADE MY POINT FOR ME by spewing a bucket of textual diarrhea that reads like a mediocre high school student's term paper...

...and, as if that wasn't enough, you drove my point further home by simply linking a few lazy, sophomoric, references to lp.org and Wikipedia !.

It barely get much dumber than that.

It's also as obvious as all hell that you have never once cracked a book on libertarian political philosophy, or any political philosophy for that matter.

You read a website, made a foolish "oath" and paid your money to belong to a silly "club" that has spent HALF A CENTURY of never getting more than 1% -2% of the vote in any national election.

If THAT isn't the definition of DUMB and GULLIBLE then nothing is.

You're obviously free to believe whatever dumb nonsense you want, even as delusional as what you post here, but you're not free to demand that other's participate in your personal delusion.






Your comments like this read to me like you are standing in the shower smirking to yourself while daydreaming your response to someone you disagree with. It’s kind of funny to imagine.
randye JAN 11, 10:17 PM

quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


Your comments like this read to me like you are standing in the shower smirking to yourself while daydreaming your response to someone you disagree with. It’s kind of funny to imagine.




So you spend your time imagining me in the shower.....

Considering everything else we now know about you, that isn't really surprising.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-11-2022).]

82-T/A [At Work] JAN 12, 09:17 AM

quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

As you can see, I am in line with the Libertarian Party on almost every single issue. You can tell me that I'm really a fork because you see a few spokes, but I'm not. Randy can, again, talk about how dumb I am. But I am, by the definition laid out by the Libertarian Party, a Libertarian.



You're simply reiterating vagueness. What I'm trying to emphasize is that your stance on things are counterproductive to what it means to be a libertarian. Your views... quite literally many of them, are counter-intuitive to upholding libertarian views.

Immigration, for one... you're basically telling me you support open-immigration, with a /slight/ hint towards them being a citizen, but not really stating in any way that you expect that to be enforced by any legitimate means. Open immigration effectively leads to the downfall of the constitutional republic, and a minimal government... leading instead to a large central-government.

LGBTQ+, the Republicans have largely nothing at all to do with this. FACT: almost all of the legislation passed that restricts the rights of homosexuals, was passed by Democrats. Proposition 8, DOMA, etc. Matter of fact, more anti-gay legislation was passed during Obama's 2008 election, in Democrat-states, than any other time in US history. It was a conservative majority in the Supreme Court that struck down DOMA and gave equal rights back to gays, and it was Republican states that were among the first to recognize gay marriage, like the state of Florida, which is wildly red (more registered Republicans than Democrats). Democrats use this as a fake issue, along with pretty much everything else. How your support of Democrat policies, which directly involve the Federal government in the lives of citizens and control over the states, is anything but libertarian.

Crime, again... I have no idea where you get your ideas from, because the link on Crime and Justice is antithetical to the Democrat party... so again, what does that have anything to do with the Democrat party that you say you align with? It was Republicans that have passed Criminal Justice reform, not once, but twice. It was also Republicans who reversed a long-standing Democrat policy on people who are mentally insane, basically abolishing asylums (Reagan). The Democrats are the ones that have even currently, enacted very strict and numerous laws... everything from making it illegal to sell cigarettes separately (e.g. what led to Eric Gardner dying) to all the other totally outrageous laws. A simple comparison of red-state and blue-state laws, and you'll find that blue states almost unequivocally have twice the number of absurd laws that lead to misdemeanors, and put minorities in particular on a bad-path that makes them unable to get jobs and hold careers. Just because Soros-backed District Attorneys do not criminalize theft under $1,000 at Walgreens, or the destruction of businesses in riots, does not mean that the Democrats are anything like you're suggesting. I mean, you could not possibly be more wrong here. If you support Democrats here, you are literally supporting the growth of government, which again, is totally antithetical to the libertarian party.

Privacy and Internet Protections ... let me guess? Net Neutrality? Have you read it? Again, you could not possibly be more further from the truth if you're saying you align with the Democrats. Again... you say things, but you literally don't know what you're talking about. Net Neutrality is like calling an Abortion Law "Save the Babies" when it funds abortion. Net Neutrality literally would have regulated the internet like a utility, which meant it would have been put in direct control of the Federal government, specifically the FCC (who would have been the one to pass the act by committee). You need to read this... it did everything opposite of what it said. Even if you're looking at it from the standpoint of eliminating "throttling" of internet from some providers, a libertarian would find this acceptable because the Government would have no say in the matter. Once again, everything you're saying is totally contradictory... you are not even remotely a libertarian, you're a Democrat... and that's ok, but recognize it for what you are.



quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
Honestly, this whole thing is a little weird. Why is this so difficult to understand? Is it because the Republicans have changed so much with the rise of Trumpism that they see anything left of right as far left? The Libertarian Party positions have remained relatively unchanged, with exception of a few items like capital punishment. Can you honestly look through everything I've stated and continue to suggest that I'm anything but a Libertarian? If so, my next question has to be... do you believe anyone is a Libertarian, or do you think we're all just Democrats in disguise?



And see, this is yet again where you're so incredibly wrong. Everything has shifted left. Your comment here, "with the rise of Trumpism that they see anything left of right as far left?"

... Trump is the most LIBERAL Republican that we've had in office in the history of the Republican party. He literally supports almost everything that was antithetical to the Republican party. He was a strong supporter of tariffs, which Republicans have always been completely against. He was very strong on border protections, which generally has been a bi-partisan football because the left wanted new voters, and the right wanted cheap labor... Trump was decidedly centrist on this. In almost every category, Trump was left of Reagan and Bush. Trump was more similar to Bill Clinton than any other president I can seem to match him with. Your comment there shows me you really do not understand anything about the dynamics of political direction.


You are not at all a libertarian, everything you support effectively leads to a stronger central-government, and more government control. You are doing a lot of mental gymnastics to try to convince yourself that you're a libertarian. What you say, and what you've actually shown me, are polar opposites... if I had to place you in a party, I'd say you more likely align with the Green Party:

https://www.gp.org/

Which is... environmentalism, smaller, but involved government, but controlled by the people in a popular democracy (don't really support a republic)... and basically everything else you've ACTUALLY stated about crime / LGBT+, etc... without fakely trying to align it to the libertarian charter.


EDIT: lots of spelling mistakes, sorry, writing this fast.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 01-12-2022).]

theBDub JAN 12, 09:29 AM
Todd, with all due respect, you're taking leaps and making assumptions that aren't what I stated. You're fighting a strawman of what you think I am, when in reality, I align almost perfectly with the Libertarian Party.

You misunderstand what the Libertarian Party is and what their platform says, which is okay, but that's on you. The reason I posted the Libertarian Party platform so many times is because I'm trying to show you that it's all there. It's on you to actually read it.
82-T/A [At Work] JAN 12, 10:54 AM

quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

Todd, with all due respect, you're taking leaps and making assumptions that aren't what I stated. You're fighting a strawman of what you think I am, when in reality, I align almost perfectly with the Libertarian Party.

You misunderstand what the Libertarian Party is and what their platform says, which is okay, but that's on you. The reason I posted the Libertarian Party platform so many times is because I'm trying to show you that it's all there. It's on you to actually read it.




Point blank... being libertarian stands for a limited, decentralized government... period.

Everything that you've vaguely professed, is for increased government intervention.


You are not a libertarian.
sourmash JAN 12, 11:18 AM
Gotta agree with that.