You dont have feee speech if you can be arrested for jokes. (Page 6/18)
fredtoast AUG 06, 01:25 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Go back and re-read the thread. It was very clear what he meant.


Okay then. Here is your big chance to make me look stupid.

Explain what he meant.
Patrick AUG 06, 02:57 PM

quote
Originally posted by PhatMax:

Not suggesting it at all, belts are a good idea. But I don’t need protection from myself…



Not everyone is smart enough to buckle up... and those are the people that these laws were enacted for. It saves the rest of us from having to shovel them off the blacktop.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-06-2023).]

82-T/A [At Work] AUG 09, 11:58 AM

quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Not everyone is smart enough to buckle up... and those are the people that these laws were enacted for. It saves the rest of us from having to shovel them off the blacktop.





No, I very much understand his argument. I knew a lot of people growing up that refused to wear their seat belts, and they were geniuses. Just because you're smart though, does not mean you always make good decisions. And just because you make bad decisions, does not mean you're not intelligent. If I had to compare it to Dungeons & Dragons... there is a difference between Intelligence, and Wisdom. Two totally different stats.

But, while I always wear my seat belt, and my daughter always does too... there is something to be said for a person having the right to make their own decisions about their own lives, without the Government making the decision for them. Case in point, you drive a motorcycle, you are freely accepting the fact that if anything happens on your bike, you could die (or get seriously hurt). There's no seat belt (not that one would help in that case).

I could be persuaded that the government can impose seat belt requirements for minors... but I don't really see any right that the government has to mandate it. I don't think anyone cares enough, but I'm willing to bet that (in the U.S.) if it made it to the Supreme Court, such a law could be overturned. The "promote the general welfare" clause gets used for a lot of things... and that's the only thing I can think of. Title 49, Statute 579 still makes sense, imposing these safety standards (to a degree) so manufacturers have to offer it. But forcing people to wear them, feels a little bit like restricting freedom.
ray b AUG 09, 01:08 PM
BOTH OUR CLAIMED TO BE LAWDOGS DO NOT WANT JURY'S TO NULLIFY

WHAT IS THE CURE FOR BAD LAWS THEN ?

AND WHY EVEN MAKE A JURY HEAR THE CASE ?

I SAY THE ONLY REAL REASON FOR A JURY IS TO NULLIFY
to insure the law is just and fair
to act as a fuse for bad laws
to limit gov power to reasonable actions
no star chambers or kangaroo courts

and ever person should know they can NULLIFY IF NEEDED

WHY DO THE COURT FEAR THE PEOPLES POWER ?
so try to outlaw not just the act of nullification but the knowledge of it's existence
that is WRONG
fredtoast AUG 09, 02:37 PM

quote
Originally posted by ray b:

BOTH OUR CLAIMED TO BE LAWDOGS DO NOT WANT JURY'S TO NULLIFY

WHAT IS THE CURE FOR BAD LAWS THEN ?




It would be insane to let 12 random people change laws they don't like.

Badf laws are corrected through elections. If a law is passed that people don't like they elect people to change it. And the votes of millions of people should not be overturned by 12 random people who have no expertise in public policy or the legal impact of laws.
fredtoast AUG 09, 02:41 PM

quote
Originally posted by ray b:


AND WHY EVEN MAKE A JURY HEAR THE CASE ?

I SAY THE ONLY REAL REASON FOR A JURY IS TO NULLIFY



If the jury does not make the findings of fact then who would? Who would decide which witnesses are telling the truth and which ones are lying? In our system that is all the jury does. They make the findings of fact and plug those findings into the law. They are not qualified to make or change laws.

Who would make the findings of fact in your system if the jury doesn't?
fredtoast AUG 09, 02:45 PM

quote
Originally posted by ray b:
WHY DO THE COURT FEAR THE PEOPLES POWER ?




The court does not fear the peoples power. That is why trial judges are ELECTED BY POPULAR VOTE. That is why laws are made by people ELECTED BY POPULAR VOTE.

What the court fears is 12 random people who know nothing about public policy or the impact of laws over ruling the votes of millions of citizens.

[This message has been edited by fredtoast (edited 08-09-2023).]

williegoat AUG 09, 02:45 PM
You two are not even on the same argument. Neither is listening to the other. This comes as no surprise.
fredtoast AUG 09, 02:53 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


Case in point, you drive a motorcycle, you are freely accepting the fact that if anything happens on your bike, you could die (or get seriously hurt)..



But if you die with no life insurance you could leave a wife and children with no support, then the taxpayers have to take care of it.

Or if you get seriously injured with no health insurance (or not enough) you could stick a hospital with millions of dollars of bills that will never get paid. Then other people see their health care costs rise to cover these costs.

Or you could survive, but be permanently disabled and unable to work. Again, if you don't have disability insurance (and most people don't) then the tax payers have to step up to pay for your stupidity.

The damage from any popular dangerous activity effects the entire society.
82-T/A [At Work] AUG 09, 03:15 PM

quote
Originally posted by fredtoast:

But if you die with no life insurance you could leave a wife and children with no support, then the taxpayers have to take care of it.

Or if you get seriously injured with no health insurance (or not enough) you could stick a hospital with millions of dollars of bills that will never get paid. Then other people see their health care costs rise to cover these costs.

Or you could survive, but be permanently disabled and unable to work. Again, if you don't have disability insurance (and most people don't) then the tax payers have to step up to pay for your stupidity.

The damage from any popular dangerous activity effects the entire society.




So then why mandate people wear seat belts, but allow people to ride motorcycles?