[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-09-2022).]

quote Originally posted by theBDub: ...I’m a Libertarian The way I see it, Democrats are currently in a war between Democrats and Progressives. Republicans had their war between the Republicans and Trumpians already, and the Trumpians won. So there aren’t that many left that I’d support.

I'd like to have a reasonable discussion here, and I'm not attacking you, to be clear. But you state this above, and the questions that first pop into my head are:

1 - What exactly is a Democrat today?
2 - What exactly does a Democrat stand for?
3 - What do you think the significant difference is between them... socialism comes to mind for me.


I then also see that you say you are a libertarian, and I question how'd you define that in the scope of what you consider libertarian values, and which ones you agree with? I reckon (since I lived in Texas for 4 years) that abortions and illicit drugs would fall into the category of being "legal" under a true libertarian ideology. But beyond that, I'm interested to know where you stand.

I then echo Fats' comment:

quote Originally posted by Fats: So you are a Libertarian that's trying to figure out if you support the Democrats or Republicans?

And I would agree strongly with what Fats asks. I say that because quite honestly, other than abortion, there is literally nothing even remotely close to the idea of being a libertarian on the Democrat side. So I guess either I have a completely different understanding of what a libertarian is, or it's changed significantly?

On that, Trump is the most liberal "Republican" the party has ever had. Trump is basically Bill Clinton circa 1996, in most ways. Trump has the same immigration views, the same fiscal views, and the same trade views. Trump is not like most Republicans when it comes to tariffs, and Trump is also by and large, a supporter of several unions.


So you continue with this:

quote Originally posted by theBDub: I won’t vote for another Republican until they denounce Trumpian fascism. The Republican Party lost me as a voter, along with many other moderates, when they refused to listen to or even consider their vote in Trump’s impeachment. So no I’m not really trying to figure out who I support. I don’t support the Democrats, but when a moderate Democrat is an option, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Honestly... you lose credibility here with me, for whatever that matters, and that's "ok." But there's no such thing as "Trump fascism." Trump is absolutely a nationalist, but if you think that defines fascism, you'd be incorrect. I also question if you've ever lived under a fascist rule, or understand what it's like. To be clear, I haven't either... but I did pretty much grow up in Miami, and my mom fled a fascist dictatorship in Argentina in the early 1960s, and my dad literally was born in a shack during the NAZI fascist occupation of the Netherlands. Fascism is more appropriately like what we're seeing right now with tearing down statues, re-writing history, regulating speech, and the government controlling everything.

And on that, I again ask, in what way, shape, or form do the Democrats more closely align with libertarianism? For as long as I've known you, you've mostly always been a Democrat. I remember you were a big fan of Kusinich (or whatever his name is) back in the day. I think you lose credibility in your argument (whatever that is) when you start going down that path of regurgitating "radical" language that only ultra-progressives push.

It's OK if you're a Democrat and perhaps embarrassed to be defined as one. Maybe you really don't like the Democrats at all, and that's OK. Help me understand exactly (without throwing meaningless "Trump is a fascist" comments) where you are on this? I'd be willing to bet that if you legitimately are a libertarian, we are probably pretty close in ideologies... and you're further apart from Democrats than you are from Republicans.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 01-10-2022).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I'd like to have a reasonable discussion here, and I'm not attacking you, to be clear. But you state this above, and the questions that first pop into my head is: 1 - What exactly is a Democrat today? 2 - What exactly does a Democrat stand for? 3 - What do you think the significant difference is between then... socialism comes to mind for me. I then also see that you say you are a libertarian, and I question how you define that, in the scope of what you consider libertarian values, and which ones you agree with?

1. Democrats are in two camps - when I describe it above, I talk to a difference between Democrat and Progressive for simplicity, but I mean the more moderate crew from the progressive. My view of Democrats is that they're loud on rhetoric but quiet on action, and that's largely because I think most of the old Democrats today are Clinton-esque fairly moderate Democrats, who say words that progressives want to hear to capture their vote but have no intention of following through.
   
2. I don't think Democrats or Republicans have a single foundation they build on for their conflicting beliefs... so this is fairly unanswerable by me. It's a collection of almost random ideas, similar to Republicans, but flipped. Take their party platform and put it on ice - they don't firmly believe in everything in there, but it's directionally there.
   
3. To me, Progressives do have a fairly firm foundation (even if I disagree with it). They believe strongly in all positive rights, and believe the government has an obligation to provide for those rights. Moderate Democrats don't believe in all positive rights, and when they do, they provide for it in the form of a program built for low-income populations, not everyone. To me, it's the difference between erasing all student loan debt (Progressive) and expanding a loan-forgiveness program (Democrat).
   

I define Libertarian as believing in all negative rights without positive rights. It's the Non-Aggression Principle personified. I take a pledge each year that I renew my membership, which states "I hereby certify that I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals." If you go to the Libertarian Party Platform, I'm in agreement with everything, ^{with the possible exception of the idea that a government should never incur debt. Responsible debt is not always a bad thing. In sum, that seems like a pretty small disagreement, though}. On a practical level, I recognize the enforcement of some negative rights require positive rights (i.e., law enforcement is necessary to enforce that you cannot steal my property, and the public has some positive rights due to this relationship), but that's fairly nuanced and not really the spirit of the distinction. I have other "practical beliefs" like understanding basic infrastructure and education is more efficiently cared for by a government than a loose collection of private parties, but honestly, it just doesn't really come up so I don't have to make tough voting decisions based on the intersection of my "practical" vs. "theoretical" beliefs.

quote Originally posted by Fats: So you are a Libertarian that's trying to figure out if you support the Democrats or Republicans?

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: And I would agree strongly with what Fats asks. I say that because quite honestly, Trump is the most liberal "Republican" the party has ever had. Trump is basically Bill Clinton circa 1996, in a lot of ways. Trump has the same immigration views, the same fiscal views, and the same trade views. Trump is not like most Republicans when it comes to tariffs, and Trump is also by and large, a supporter of several unions.

This isn't exhaustive, just some of the top items I think of:
Where I disagree with Trump

• Abortion
  
• Civil Asset Forfeiture
  
• Immigration
  
• Healthcare (I'm closer to Republicans, while Trump wanted to artificially force lower prices)
  
• Law enforcement (I would go further)
  
• Section 230
  
• Drugs (his actions removed protections, though his words indicated he thought otherwise)
  
• Arbitrary tariffs
  

Where I agree with Trump:

• Second amendment
  
• Pulling out of Syria, Afghanistan (I give Trump credit for the decision, Biden and Trump both fault in implementation)
  
• Individual taxes
  
• Business taxes
  

Since you brought it up, I have very little opinion on unions. Individuals should always have a right to unify and collectively bargain. The government shouldn't do anything to put them down. They also shouldn't protect them more than any other voluntary agreement.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: So you continue with this: And honestly... you lose credibility here with me, for whatever that matters, and I don't think it matters much, and that's "ok." But there's no such thing as "Trump fascism." Trump is absolutely a nationalist, but if you think that defines fascism, you'd be incorrect. I also question if you've ever lived under a fascist rule, or understand what it's like. To be clear, I haven't either... but I did pretty much grow up in Miami, and my mom fled a fascist dictatorship in Argentina in the early 1960s, and my dad literally was born in a shack during the NAZI fascist occupation of the Netherlands. Fascism is more appropriately like what we're seeing right now with tearing down statues, re-writing history, regulating speech, and the government controlling everything. Not that it really matters, because for as long as I've known you, you've mostly always been a Democrat. I remember you were a big fan of Kusinich (or whatever his name is) back in the day. I think you lose credibility in your argument (whatever that is) when you start going down that path of regurgitating "radical" language that only ultra-progressives push.

I don't know who Kusinich is? So I don't think I was a big fan

I absolutely believe the Trumpian movement falls under the fascist umbrella. He continued to push lies about the election in an effort to sow distrust in the voting process and overthrow the election results. He tried to get Vice President Pence to toss the electors' votes out and not certify the election, because of these lies. But even then, my statement isn't just about Trump himself. It's the "Trumpian" movement that is fascist. Attempting to overthrow the election with violence, calls to limit the freedom of the press, limit religious freedom with Muslims... But it's not any of these taken at face value, it's more the collection of this combined with them essentially overtaking the Republican Party and being increasingly comfortable with the idea of political violence. If we stop the movement today, would it be called fascism in 2030? No. But we have seen the beginning stages, and I do think it's fair to say it's going in that direction if the Republican Party doesn't take itself back from the Trumpians and denounce some of that behavior.

---

Edit to address your edit:

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: And on that, I again ask, in what way, shape, or form do the Democrats more closely align with libertarianism? For as long as I've known you, you've mostly always been a Democrat. I remember you were a big fan of Kusinich (or whatever his name is) back in the day. I think you lose credibility in your argument (whatever that is) when you start going down that path of regurgitating "radical" language that only ultra-progressives push. It's OK if you're a Democrat and perhaps embarrassed to be defined as one. Maybe you really don't like the Democrats at all, and that's OK. Help me understand exactly (without throwing meaningless "Trump is a fascist" comments) where you are on this? I'd be willing to bet that if you legitimately are a libertarian, we are probably pretty close in ideologies... and you're further apart from Democrats than you are from Republicans.

Just to be clear, I do not align closely with either major party, especially on their methods. But on a broad stroke...
Where I align with Democrats:

• Abortion
  
• Voting rights
  
• Immigration
  
• LGBTQ+ rights, and similar things I'd associate with the First Amendment, as we have a right from religion just as much as a right for religion
  
• Capital Punishment
  
• Generally, more lax sentences for crime
  
• Privacy and internet protections
  
• Social justice (I oppose most government action in this area, except where government action caused the imbalance, but it's worth mentioning)

Where I align with Republicans:

• Second amendment
  
• Healthcare, kinda
  
• Taxes

Where neither party gets me:

• Military spending
  
• Environmental policies, kinda
  
• Police reform
  
• Justice system reform
  
• Education, especially higher education

When it comes to the "big rocks," I'm really not aligned with either party. So it's fairly easy for me to drop support of Republicans until they figure their **** out. Neither party supports my goals, and taxes are not the only thing I need to consider when voting.

I hope this is enough context for you to understand that it's not just lip service. The Republican Party is not just losing votes of people who are just "Democrat-lite." They'll win 2022, handily, but I'm desperately hoping they rediscover themselves before 2024.

[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 01-10-2022).]

[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 01-11-2022).]