Abortion thread (Page 40/43)
theBDub MAY 11, 09:46 AM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


Where we disagree, is that you believe the government should take action to protect people, even if it means (potentially) violating their rights. I understand this, I completely do.




I don't know if this is necessarily the line--doesn't the military exist to protect our rights/lives from foreign parties (in theory)?

Anyway, I think this is funny, because anti-choice people have extreme views on government involvement in what we do with our bodies. If you don't believe vaccines should be mandated, you should then therefore believe abortions should be allowed.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills sometimes here. How am I not the most logically consistent?

People should have full autonomy over what they do with their bodies:
  • No vaccines should be mandated by the government
  • No fetuses should be mandated to full term by the government
  • No jobs should be mandated (i.e., healthcare providers should not be compelled by law to provide care, no religious leaders should be compelled to provide marriages/services against their religion, no bakers should be required to bake a cake)
  • No military service should be mandated (i.e., get rid of selective service)


So many people here display what I think is some cognitive dissonance. "No vaccines should be mandated! I choose what I do with my body! Oh, but not you, you don't choose what you do with your body! I'm going to force you to carry an unwanted pregnancy against your will for 9 months, which carries far more risk and long-term health effects than a vaccine." This is actually what you believe.


quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


I personally believe that the government's role should be very limited... and that such actions can be strongly recommended, but that shouldn't necessarily impugn on my rights if I don't want to participate. I know you can say (in this case) that abortion is violating someone's right. I realize that, and I realize my hypocrisy in this. But from my perspective, I also believe that a baby has rights too. There is some level of personal responsibility that needs to occur. Almost every state has laws respecting abortion for rape or incest. Your or my feelings aside, I think every state will continue to maintain such law... even though this comes out to less than 1/10th of 1% of abortions.

I respect your opinion, I do... so I'm not trying to change your opinion. But I recognize that there are things such as "morning after" pill, where the collection of unfertilized frog eggs you showed above, would never become an actual fetus or grow into a human being. I believe that human life is a gift from God. It's an inherent believe that I feel strongly about. So much so that I am also against the death penalty. And while I did go to Afghanistan (war), I was there to protect people (I am not a soldier) as a cybersecurity engineer. That does not mean that if our country was invaded, that I wouldn't take up arms... but I would hate it.

My views are carefully thought out, and are not based on any particular "team sport" ideology. A lot of people disagree with me... there are plenty of people who want to adopt, including homosexual couples. Bottom line, everyone has a right to life... and those who are the most innocent, deserve the right to at least try. They are guilty of nothing... they've literally done nothing... about as innocent as you can get, and they certainly don't deserve the death penalty because in 95% of cases, the person simply had sex without birth control.

Anyway, that's my opinion... I respect yours, but now you know how I feel and that's not changing. I used to support abortion before I'd ever really thought about it. I also used to be for the death penalty before I ever really thought about it.




Personal responsibility is a blanket excuse you're using to take away our rights. How far do you take that?
  • You left your door unlocked, therefore you bear responsibility for getting robbed
  • You walked in the dark alley, therefore you bear responsibility for being raped
  • You crossed over into the bad part of town, therefore you bear responsibility for getting murdered


In some ways, there is an argument for any of those. Had you not gone in that alley, maybe you wouldn't have been raped. But is that actually an argument? Do we actually use those arguments in that way?

You want to take away our bodily autonomy because there is another innocent party that now has rights. You have not addressed why one party simply existing allows them to override our own bodily autonomy.

I agree that the fetus has rights. I simply can't agree that they then deserve unimpeded access to our organs, and more so that their access to our organs should be protected by the government.

Some Republicans even want the death penalty for having an abortion. Imagine that. Protecting lives by taking lives.
olejoedad MAY 11, 09:54 AM
To address the part of the above post concerning the purpose of the military.

This is the oath that a member of the Military swears to....

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Edit to add...

There is no expiration date.

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 05-11-2022).]

theBDub MAY 11, 01:31 PM
If, as suggested, a fertilized egg is a full constitutionally-protected person that we are forced to bring to term, what do we do about IVF?

We can't ban abortion at conception on the argument that its right to life supersedes our rights without ending IVF.
ray b MAY 11, 01:42 PM
I believe a policy supported by 20% of the population

is NOT a winning strategy for the 2022 election

and our con's can't understand that

btw the rump guy lost last nites election in flyover land Gop primary

maybe the evil is reseeding

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

2.5 MAY 11, 02:13 PM
I suggest starting again at the beginning of the thread. The trails that lead to your current abortion arguments ended long ago. You are walking on air.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-11-2022).]

williegoat MAY 11, 02:14 PM

quote
Originally posted by ray b:

I believe a policy supported by 20% of the population

is NOT a winning strategy for the 2022 election



Some chose their position based on values, not " a winning strategy". I would rather be right than be "the winner".
williegoat MAY 11, 03:53 PM

quote
Originally posted by ray b:

btw the rump guy lost last nites election in flyover land Gop primary

maybe the evil is reseeding



He won two of three in Nebraska and both in WV last night. In addition, he has won every other primary this year. That is a total of about 40 Trump endorsed primary wins.

Reseeding evil? Trump is tramping out that vintage. God willing, the left will not get to reap the evil they have sown.
82-T/A [At Work] MAY 11, 06:18 PM

quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

The only eggs I've ever "messed up" came from chickens.




"You" in my response was generic... not YOU as in Patrick.
Patrick MAY 11, 07:17 PM

No problem.
MidEngineManiac MAY 11, 09:10 PM

quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

Some chose their position based on values, not " a winning strategy". I would rather be right than be "the winner".



Problem is conflicting values...and how to reconcile them.

Do we believe in slavery ? (no) forced-mandated just about anything (no) individuality, self-determination and freedom (oh hell yes)

Do we willingly take on our role to protect and do for the weak what they cant themselves ? To be "normal right-wing-racist-mysigonistic-nazi's"

If putting a 9mm to a babies head and firing is murder, then abortion is murder, that is simple....but it doesn't end there. When does refusing to become an organ donor become murder ??

If I pick and choose which homeless I give a meal or coat to, and one starves or freezes to death because another didn't, is that murder ? No, its not.

At the end of the day, I gotta agree with the "my body my choice" stance, for everything (including vax and abortion) WITH the caveat of "your choice, your responsibility"

And lets be honest, I'd much rather have a puppie than a baby shittin on my floors. A puppy can be trained in a few months, a baby is going to be shittin on you for 50 years plus.