Thoughts on the blame game... (Page 3/5)
82-T/A [At Work] NOV 13, 06:53 AM

quote
Originally posted by NewDustin:

You know what dude, it really sucks to chant "**** you" at me for friends you lost in Afghanistan knowing who I am and what I've been through. Seriously, I've had some thick skin through all of our conversations, but that was shitty. I hope you enjoy the election victory, but I have no desire to speak with you about it further.

Also I didn't vote for Biden or Kamala Harris, and have told you repeatedly I've never voted for a Democrat.

You're over here chanting "**** you" at a war veteran over dead soldiers the day after Veterans Day because you were mistaken about the way they voted. Stop and think about that for a second.




I have a really hard time dealing with the fact that you seem to place the failure of Afghanistan on Trump... absolving Biden of this failure. You have literally nothing you can point to as "fact" that this was Trump's fault, except for a feeling or a desire to shift blame. Even if you were to look for an article supporting this feeling, it would just be a left-leaning apology article that says "He followed Trump's plan, with nothing else behind it... or a quote from some hack that says, "we followed Trump's plan."

Nothing that was done in that last month, was even remotely "Trump's plan."

I'm not upset that you're blaming Trump... I'm upset that you're shifting blame from Biden. I do not really wish you to "**** off" but I am extremely pissed about this. You have the right to believe whatever you want... but I truly believe your political bias is not allowing you to see what literally happened... we were all there. The NSA chief was one of the last people on the plane, shared with a bunch of Afghans sitting on the floor of the very last C130 that took off. Even he is confused at the mere mention that this was "Trump's plan." From sending out those 20 year olds, untrained, bunched together (making themselves a target), to hastily calling a drone strike that accidentally killed an aid worker and ~10 children because his political hacks were so desperate to cover for this epic failure. Pulling all the soldiers out before evacuating our civilians, none of that was "Trump's plan."

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 11-13-2024).]

NewDustin NOV 13, 10:27 AM
I can't help but imagine that you would have a different perspective on this had you shared some the experiences of the war veterans on this forum. As it is, I hope once whatever is driving this current round of political psychosis subsides you have the decency to be ashamed of how you've conducted yourself.

Outside of that I have no desire to continue conversation with you on this.
82-T/A [At Work] NOV 13, 10:40 AM

quote
Originally posted by NewDustin:
I can't help but imagine that you would have a different perspective on this had you shared some the experiences of the war veterans on this forum. As it is, I hope once whatever is driving this current round of political psychosis subsides you have the decency to be ashamed of how you've conducted yourself.

Outside of that I have no desire to continue conversation with you on this.




So you can't answer the question then, it's just based on feelings? I may not be a veteran, but I carried a gun and traveled with the military as a civilian intelligence officer and deployed to hostile places (including Afghanistan) just as you did living in a CHU and in barracks for 6 months at a time, and traveling routinely by all the same means you did. The ONLY difference is that I was supposed to run the other way when there's gun fire, not towards it... which was equally frustrating. I PCSed every 2-3 years uprooting my family just as you did, and did it for over a decade. Don't pretend to hold yourself to a higher esteem than me, you can't answer a simple question, and seem to push the blame on Trump for the literal actions of Biden.

I've tried to understand the logic behind "this was Trump's fault," and I can't find anything that reinforces this other than just another liberal article that says "this is Trump's fault." What disgusts me is when people apologize for Biden's failure in Afghanistan. All the lives lost, and the Biden administration had the audacity to say the Afghans "didn't care" about their freedom. The ANSF lost nearly a hundred thousand people... fighting for their country. And you absolve him of the blame. It disgusts me. You don't get a pass for really bad opinions, veteran or not.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 11-13-2024).]

blackrams NOV 13, 10:41 AM

quote
Originally posted by NewDustin:

None of it has seemed like gloating to me.



I sincerely do appreciate that comment.

Rams
NewDustin NOV 13, 11:14 AM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

So you can't answer the question then, it's just based on feelings? I may not be a veteran, but I carried a gun and traveled with the military as a civilian intelligence officer and deployed to hostile places (including Afghanistan) just as you did living in a CHU and in barracks for 6 months at a time, and traveling routinely by all the same means you did. The ONLY difference is that I was supposed to run the other way when there's gun fire, not towards it... which was equally frustrating. I PCSed every 2-3 years uprooting my family just as you did, and did it for over a decade. Don't pretend to hold yourself to a higher esteem than me, you can't answer a simple question, and seem to push the blame on Trump for the literal actions of Biden.

I've tried to understand the logic behind "this was Trump's fault," and I can't find anything that reinforces this other than just another liberal article that says "this is Trump's fault." What disgusts me is when people apologize for Biden's failure in Afghanistan. All the lives lost, and the Biden administration had the audacity to say the Afghans "didn't care" about their freedom. The ANSF lost nearly a hundred thousand people... fighting for their country. And you absolve him of the blame. It disgusts me. You don't get a pass for really bad opinions, veteran or not.



I didn't realize you considered yourself a war veteran. Happy belated Veteran's Day then.
82-T/A [At Work] NOV 13, 11:32 AM

quote
Originally posted by NewDustin:

I didn't realize you considered yourself a war veteran. Happy belated Veteran's Day then.




I'm NOT a war "veteran"... I deployed to Afghanistan just as you did... lived in a CHU for 6 months at a time, did ALL the same things you did. You and I even crossed paths, and probably saw eachother at Warrior or Dragon DFAC. The only difference was that I was allowed to wear the same clothes as a defense contractor because I was in the IC, and didn't have to wear the uniform with the triangle CIV where the rank patch goes. I did all the same things you did, carried the same weapons... saw guts getting shoveled into a pickup by the clean-up crew... and body parts of children strewn all over the place after an IED (like the upper torso of a 10-11 year old girl being thrown into the back of a pickup, same age as my daughter, with all the other dead people). All the same sick and disgustingly sad **** you saw. I traveled from Heathrow to Qatar to pick up my weapon just as you did before boarding a C130 to Kandahar, HKIA, or Bagram. I went through all the same weapons training, ISOPREP, all that crap. I even wore the same military issued boots. This isn't about your service, which you are making it about... I give you absolute credit for your service... the distinction is that you were forced to do it as part of your service to the country... which probably makes it harder. I volunteered for it... so maybe I am the idiot. I absolutely don't get any praise for my service, and that's fine.

Yes, I am messed up from it. I can't go to veterans memorial services without breaking down crying, or watching anything related to middle east war movies without getting really upset. I shoved my wife to the ground four months ago because some roofers were installing a new roof on a house in a neighborhood with a pneumatic nailer and I thought they were gunshots. I am messed up, I recognize that. But it infuriates me when I hear people push the blame off to President Trump... not because I have some love affair with the guy, but because it's clear the political dissonance is so strong that they can't even recognize that the sitting President of just over 8 months was the one calling the shots (or should have been), and literally everything we did there resulted in nothing but death, and total failure.

I haven't been able to find anything that supports this argument (Trump's fault), other than the usual stuff that says "it was Trump's plan" but no one seems to know what that plan is. The Doha agreement was violated on day one of Biden's inauguration. At that point Biden should have made a decision then... what he ended up doing was a disaster.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 11-13-2024).]

NewDustin NOV 13, 11:53 AM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I'm NOT a war "veteran"... I deployed to Afghanistan just as you did... lived in a CHU for 6 months at a time, did ALL the same things you did. You and I even crossed paths, and probably saw eachother at Warrior or Dragon DFAC. The only difference was that I was allowed to wear the same clothes as a defense contractor because I was in the IC, and didn't have to wear the uniform with the triangle CIV where the rank patch goes. I did all the same things you did, carried the same weapons... saw guts getting shoveled into a pickup by the clean-up crew... and body parts of children strewn all over the place after an IED (like the upper torso of a 10-11 year old girl being thrown into the back of a pickup, same age as my daughter, with all the other dead people). All the same sick and disgustingly sad **** you saw. I traveled from Heathrow to Qatar to pick up my weapon just as you did before boarding a C130 to Kandahar, HKIA, or Bagram. I went through all the same weapons training, ISOPREP, all that crap. I even wore the same military issued boots. This isn't about your service, which you are making it about... I give you absolute credit for your service... the distinction is that you were forced to do it as part of your service to the country. I volunteered for it... so maybe I am the idiot. I absolutely don't get any praise for my service, and that's fine.

Yes, I am messed up from it. I can't go to veterans memorial services without breaking down crying, or watching anything related to middle east war movies without getting really upset. I shoved my wife to the ground four months ago because some roofers were installing a new roof on a house in a neighborhood with a pneumatic nailer and I thought they were gunshots. I am messed up, I recognize that. But it infuriates me when I hear people push the blame off to President Trump... not because I have some love affair with the guy, but because it's clear the political dissonance is so strong that they can't even recognize that the sitting President of just over 8 months was the one calling the shots (or should have been), and literally everything we did there resulted in nothing but death, and total failure.

I haven't been able to find anything that supports this argument (Trump's fault), other than the usual stuff that says "it was Trump's plan" but no one seems to know what that plan is. The Doha agreement was violated on day one of Biden's inauguration. At that point Biden should have made a decision then... what he ended up doing was a disaster.



I'm not making Trump and Biden being equally responsible for Afghanistan about my service. I'm not going to discuss that with you further, so make whatever assumptions you want about how I feel about it.

What I am making about service is you feeling enabled and empowered to chant "**** you" at combat veterans and blame them for their dead comrades based on how they voted (especially when you're wrong about how they voted). You are confusing me with someone else (we never crossed paths), and you are confusing what you experienced with what I did; what you've described is not what deploying with a Marine infantry battalion is like. I don't want to diminish what you went through but I'm also not going to pretend like you having had a contracting job in Afghanistan justifies how you are behaving.
82-T/A [At Work] NOV 13, 12:06 PM

quote
Originally posted by NewDustin:I'm not making Trump and Biden being equally responsible for Afghanistan about my service. I'm not going to discuss that with you further, so make whatever assumptions you want about how I feel about it.

What I am making about service is you feeling enabled and empowered to chant "**** you" at combat veterans and blame them for their dead comrades based on how they voted (especially when you're wrong about how they voted). You are confusing me with someone else (we never crossed paths), and you are confusing what you experienced with what I did; what you've described is not what deploying with a Marine infantry battalion is like. I don't want to diminish what you went through but I'm also not going to pretend like you having had a contracting job in Afghanistan justifies how you are behaving.



I was NOT a defense contractor God damnit. And I never blamed you for anyone's deaths, and I didn't blame "combat veterans" for anything. I said your opinion was stupid, and you can't back up what you are saying. And I said we likely crossed paths. I was the Information Security Officer for USFOR-A's J6 on loan from my agency, and went to every FOB and all the sites, so I was saying we likely crossed paths metaphorically since we were both there at the same time. That was me trying to give an olive branch, but you're doubling down on how great your service is, and saying ridiculous **** about how I'm criticizing veterans. I'm ONLY criticizing your view that you think Trump was responsible for Biden's failure in Afghanistan.
NewDustin NOV 13, 12:18 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I was NOT a defense contractor God damnit. And I never blamed you for anyone's deaths, and I didn't blame "combat veterans" for anything. I said your opinion was stupid, and you can't back up what you are saying. And I said we likely crossed paths. I was the Information Security Officer for USFOR-A's J6 on loan from my agency, and went to every FOB and all the sites, so I was saying we likely crossed paths metaphorically since we were both there at the same time. That was me trying to give an olive branch, but you're doubling down on how great your service is, and saying ridiculous **** about how I'm criticizing veterans. I'm ONLY criticizing your view that you think Trump was responsible for Biden's failure in Afghanistan.



You said:
"I understand that you voted for Joe Biden, and that it's difficult for you to accept that a decision YOU made, helped lead to this disastrous pull out of epic proportions. Today... I'm going to give you a big **** YOU. It's not personal, but **** YOU. I lost friends there, as I'm sure you probably did if you went to Afghanistan."
I can understand not wanting to own that. It's a hell of a thing to say.

I apologize for mischaracterizing your service; that was not my intention and I understand being insulted by it. It is still not the same as mine, though you're wrong that I think that makes mine better. It still doesn't make what you said ok.

[This message has been edited by NewDustin (edited 11-13-2024).]

82-T/A [At Work] NOV 13, 12:25 PM

quote
Originally posted by NewDustin:
You said:
"I understand that you voted for Joe Biden, and that it's difficult for you to accept that a decision YOU made, helped lead to this disastrous pull out of epic proportions. Today... I'm going to give you a big **** YOU. It's not personal, but **** YOU. I lost friends there, as I'm sure you probably did if you went to Afghanistan."
I can understand not wanting to own that. It's a hell of a thing to say.

I apologize for mischaracterizing your service; that was not my intention and I understand being insulted by it. It is still not the same as mine, though you're wrong that I think that makes mine better.




You're clearly reading into this more than what I'm saying... which I think is intentional. I take this very personally... so I apologize if I'm getting heated. I contend that you still cannot provide any substance to saying this was Trump's fault. I have other friends (all Democrats) who say the same thing... because this was the narrative that the White House pushed as a desperate attempt to explain away the disaster that was the Afghan pull-out. I'm really upset with the way things turned out.

As for defense contractors, I'm not going to diminish their service... but you and I clearly were not paid in any way shape or form, close to what a defense contractor was paid. You and I (I assume) did what we did because we care about our country. Maybe that's why a defense contractor does it too... but they certainly make a lot of money from it.

For whatever it matters... Area 82, and Camp Vance were all DoD civilians. They don't get free mental healthcare... we get the obligatory before and after meeting with the psychologist, and that's that. If I have problem, I have to figure it out on my own.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 11-13-2024).]