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| US appeals court blocks all of Biden student debt relief plan (Page 3/13) |
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NewDustin
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JUL 18, 11:05 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Doug85GT:
Your understanding of money and debt is naive.
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You aren't arguing against my understanding of money and debt, you are arguing against the Levy Economics Institute's understanding of money and debt.
If you don't mind not making sweeping assumptions about my understanding of things you'll find that I am already doing the same for you 
Feel free to correct me on any specific points you think I might be wrong on, though.
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Where do you think that money came from in the first place? It did not appear out of thin air.
If I borrow $20 from you to buy a McDonalds meal, then you forgive my debt, you are still out $20. By extension if you loan that money out on behalf of the taxpayers, then forgave the debt, the tax payers are still out $20.
No matter what, a nation's debt is always paid back by either taxes or inflation. It never just disappears. |
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There is a giant difference between the micro a macro economic principles you are oversimplifying and conflating. Countries, states, and even cities, do not have the same economic behaviors as individuals or households.[This message has been edited by NewDustin (edited 07-18-2024).]
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Doug85GT
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JUL 19, 12:17 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
There is a giant difference between the micro a macro economic principles you are oversimplifying and conflating. Countries, states, and even cities, do not have the same economic behaviors as individuals or households.
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Then explain where the money for the loans came from.
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NewDustin
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JUL 19, 09:51 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Doug85GT:
Then explain where the money for the loans came from. |
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I believe it's treasuries.
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BingB
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JUL 19, 10:18 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Doug85GT:
No matter what, a nation's debt is always paid back by either taxes or inflation. It never just disappears. |
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A nations debt to itself?
Our national debt is different from a business or individual. For example, all the profit made from interest paid to the Federal Reserve on the Federal Debt is RETURNED to the US government. Between 2011 and 2021 the Fed remitted $920 BILLION
to the US Treasury.
Many of these student loan holders have already paid enough in interest to cover the original principle of the debt, and the federal student loan system is not intended to make a profit.[This message has been edited by BingB (edited 07-19-2024).]
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maryjane
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JUL 19, 10:59 AM
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There's no such thing as the govt owning someone's personal debt. The govt or one of its programs may guarantee repayment but the debt is owned by the borrower and then the taxpayer. And the vast majority of us taxpayers didn't sign on the line to promise we would pay a student loan back. Pull your wallet out and start putting YOUR $$$$ where your text is. Then come back and tell us how great it is. [This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-19-2024).]
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williegoat
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JUL 19, 11:20 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
There's no such thing as the govt owning someone's personal debt. The govt or one of its programs may guarantee repayment but the debt is owned by the borrower and then the taxpayer. And the vast majority of us taxpayers didn't sign on the line to promise we would pay a student loan back. Pull your wallet out and start putting YOUR $$$$ where your text is. Then come back and tell us how great it is.
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cliffw
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JUL 19, 11:29 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
I'd pay off their debts if it had an economic net benefit; would be petty to the point of absurdity not to. I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the case -there does not seem to be sufficient information for us to make a determination like that yet- but it seems foolhardy to assume the conclusion based on how emotionally satisfying it would be.
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Economic net benefit ? It does for those whose debts are forgiven. Have you stopped to think what the economic net drawbacks are ?
Increased GDP ? Are you for forgiving, um, us forgiving loans to tradesmen and forgiving those loans ? Are the loans you want forgiven merit based ? Do you want us to forgive loans to those who got a degree in basket making ?
| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
The likely outcome is increased GDP, decreased unemployment, increased job creation, and increased funds in state budgets. |
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The outcome of just giving the loan is an increase in GDP except it depletes funds from the community coffers. It does create more jobs, ..., in government, lobbying jobs, and in colleges.
| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
If I did have student loans would that impact the validity of my argument? |
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No. It still would not be valid.
| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
The money is already gone; the schools were paid and the federal government owns this debt. The argument here is that canceling those debts would not force anyone else to pay them off; that the economic increase from not insisting on repayment of the loans would generate more stimulus than the government could otherwise create by collecting on them.
In other words, nobody is forcing anybody to pay for anything, everyone saves/makes more money by not going after this debt. |
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The money is not "gone". If it was, where did it go ? The government does not owe, thus own, the debts. How can you advocate that canceling student debt is not forcing others to pay ? Yeah yeah, increased GDP,   . Tell us why that is important ? Other than Greater Debt Potential.
| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
There isn't, but there is such a thing responsible tax dollar stewardship. I'm suggesting we discuss whether or not this is it. |
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Borrow money to give and forgive loans,  . Government debt is a drag on GDP.
| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
That is factually inaccurate. We are talking about federal student debt, which is owned by the federal government. The feds are also not responsible for the loan administration, the servicers are.
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Brilliant ! More jobs created, . Government jobs,  .
| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
... the money is gone. It was paid to the schools and now exists as debt.
Again, I'm arguing that to the best of our knowledge, the debt would likely not be increased by no longer asking for payment on it. The economic offset looks like it would more than make up for it. If you disagree with that I've already asked you to elaborate on why. |
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The debt would be increased.
You have not made a good argument, example, for a positive economic offset.
| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
You aren't arguing against my understanding of money and debt, you are arguing against the Levy Economics Institute's understanding of money and debt. |
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Is "understanding" a high faluting word for opinion ?
| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
There is a giant difference between the micro a macro economic principles you are oversimplifying and conflating. Countries, states, and even cities, do not have the same economic behaviors as individuals or households. |
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Countries, states, and even cities, do not earn money.
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bonaduce
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JUL 19, 11:43 AM
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My question is where does this "bail out" stop. I want my student loan forgiving, wait, I did the responsible thing and paid them off. Does this mean I can ask the government to reimburse me for this.
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BingB
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JUL 19, 11:58 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
There's no such thing as the govt owning someone's personal debt. The govt or one of its programs may guarantee repayment but the debt is owned by the borrower and then the taxpayer. And the vast majority of us taxpayers didn't sign on the line to promise we would pay a student loan back. Pull your wallet out and start putting YOUR $$$$ where your text is. Then come back and tell us how great it is.
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Are you talking about profit from interest or repayment of principle? The federal government holds more than 90 percent of the $1.4 trillion in outstanding student loans, either as the original lender or the backer.
Many people paying on student loan debt have already paid enough to cover the principle of the debt, and since the government is not a for profit bank in the business of making a profit off of student loans I don't see the problem.
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williegoat
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JUL 19, 12:08 PM
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We gave the Marxists an entire century. Millions died.
Now some are trying to "baby step" us back to the 20th century. They think they are more clever than Mao and Lenin.
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