William Penn -- Cancelled (Page 2/22)
BingB JAN 09, 09:03 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
There is not a single country in this world, least of which is a Native American tribe, that does not have tons of bad stuff that got them to where they are. It's part of human nature. There is no benefit on focusing on our bad. It can be taught in school, but we also need to understand that a lot of good (that we have today) came from that bad. If there was no European to New World slavery. You wouldn't have heroes such as Frederick Douglass, Rosa Parks, or Dr. MLK Jr.

When I say eliminate, I mean eliminate the current form of Government that we have. Our form of government, which... while it has changed over the years, was predominantly a Republic with significantly more focus on local state governance than the type of Federal-centric society we have now. We've eroded away our concept of Republic over the years through the election of Senators, which further democratizes it. I have no interest in defending or arguing those points, but what I will say is that this type of Government... where the states still have a preponderance of power over the Federal government (in lieu of Federal statute through the Supremacy Clause)... it does not function well for the modern Democrat party (or globalists... if you will) which desire a more centralized government. The U.S. Constitution, as it stands, is the single biggest bottleneck for the vast majority of policies that Democrats would like to enact.

It's not really a secret anymore that global powers influence our country, both financially and in other means. We've gone directly from the denial process to immediate acceptance of this fact in a relatively short period of time. The United States... specifically the U.S. Constitution, also stands as the biggest bottle-neck to a more formal globalist agenda. Outside of the countries like Iran, Russia, China, etc. The rest of the Western / Coalition countries if you will... could more easily be controlled through global influence if the U.S. Constitution didn't have the rigid and clear-cut 1st, 2nd, and 4th Amendment that it does.

The way you eliminate such an idea, is to prevent people from idolizing these amendments, which most Conservatives do... as well as many libertarians... and to a degree... most kids who are properly taught in school the reason for their existence. I'm not going to argue what the global agenda is... it could be totally positive, or it could be totally self-serving for the individuals that make up what we consider the globalist leaders. Either way... the United States constantly stands in the way simply because it's the most economically powerful country in the world, and the Constitution to a large degree prevents any erosion of sovereignty of these rights.

EDIT: When you can convince the public that the very foundation of their country is bad, they lose their pride for the institution that supports it. This makes it a lot easier to "eliminate" it, because exponentially fewer people will want to defend it. I have no doubt in my mind that the majority of the people who support these "reimagined" parks and tearing down of statues believe that they're doing good work. They solidly believe they are righting a wrong, and I don't question that intent. What I do however also acknowledge, is that the catalyst for these actions are not so well intentioned. They have a much more nefarious purpose.



I still disagree. Acknowledging what happened in the past does not make us weaker. It makes us stronger. People who refuse to acknowledge the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

And I still don't understand the details of how this is supposed to work. I don't see any connection between "We need to acknowledge the role the native Americans played in our country's history" and "Lets give all our power to the UN". How specifically does "A" lead to "B".
randye JAN 09, 09:34 PM

quote
Originally posted by BingB:


I still disagree. Acknowledging what happened in the past does not make us weaker.






If by "acknowledging" you mean feelings of guilt, constant apologies and self-flagellation for events of the past, then you are WRONG.

Feeling perpetual guilt, to the point of personal apologies and constant self-loathing, for things that you had nothing personally to do with IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR.

Do you "acknowledge" the Holocaust?
Do you feel guilty for it and make apologies for it?

How about the "Trail of Tears"? You losing sleep over that one?

Is old "Willy Penn" causing you severe angst?

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-09-2024).]

rinselberg JAN 09, 10:34 PM

quote
Originally posted by BingB:

I don't see any connection between "We need to acknowledge the role the native Americans played in our country's history" and "Lets give all our power to the [United Nations.]

How specifically does "A" lead to "B"..?


I think that connection exists mostly in the conspiracy theory-prone recesses of forum member 82-T/A's mind!

This is the problem I have with so many of the assertions that "82" puts forwards as the connective tissue of his dissertations about matters political.

I don't think I know anything about the literal origins of this "Plan for a Welcome Park 2.0 sans statue of William Penn." That first news report from forum member Notorio and the other reports that curiosity led me to find on my own are not full blown, in-depth, investigative journalism.

Even if it were true that this "Welcome Park 2.0" idea is the concept of some literally radical leftists who want to erase or completely redefine the colonial history of Pennsylvania, we see that there are still functional checks and balances in the system. The National Park Service has not been able or willing to push ahead with this initial plan for a renovation of Welcome Park, in the face of public and publicly expressed opposition to the idea of taking away this statue of William Penn.

It may be that the National Park Service needs to review how they go about the soliciting of public input on their ideas and plans. It seems like there was some bureaucratic "dropping of the ball" in what should have happened, in terms of publicizing this particular plan and soliciting public input on it.

But let's not get carried away. Just about anything could happen to Welcome Park if there were to be a second Trump administration.

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 01-09-2024).]

Notorio JAN 09, 11:40 PM

quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:
...

I don't think I know anything about the literal origins of this "Plan for a Welcome Park 2.0 sans statue of William Penn." That first news report from forum member Notorio and the other reports that curiosity led me to find on my own are not full blown, in-depth, investigative journalism.

...



As the OP, it is true that I didn't read all the articles on Google News on this subject, although I did read several, and took pains to avoid posting a story that was only on Fox News. But I have to chuckle at the mention of 'in-depth, investigative journalism,' as if that actually has existed at any time in the last 25 years. But to get back to my post, I stand corrected in my assumption that the NPS would probably ignore the online comments --- the available evidence shows that they DID listen. I don't believe their 'we posted by mistake' excuse but I will willingly give them credit for Listening and Responding at Light Speed, for a Federal Government function. Hopefully a new, well-balanced plan can be proposed by the NPS in the future.
rinselberg JAN 10, 06:25 AM

quote
Originally posted by randye:
If by "acknowledging" you [BingB] mean feelings of guilt, constant apologies and self-flagellation for events of the past, then you are WRONG.

Feeling perpetual guilt, to the point of personal apologies and constant self-loathing, for things that you had nothing personally to do with IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR.

Do you "acknowledge" the Holocaust? Do you feel guilty for it and make apologies for it? How about the "Trail of Tears"? You losing sleep over that one?

Is old "Willy Penn" causing you severe angst?


This wasn't addressed directly to me, but I think it's fair game for me to engage with it.


The remarks starts with this:

quote
IF by "acknowledging" [what happened in the past] you mean feelings of guilt, constant apologies and self-flagellation for events of the past, then you are WRONG.


There's an obvious response:

quote
No. That's not what I mean by "acknowledging" what has happened in the past. I acknowledge the Holocaust and the Trail of Tears, and everything about William Penn—the good and the bad—but I don't feel guilty about any of it, and I certainly do not feel any need to apologize for any of it, or engage in any kind of metaphorical (much less literal) self-flagellation about any of it.


This is a case of a rant from forum member randye and for no reason. "Rant Without a Cause." That rolls off the tongue nicely (so to speak) and of course, it's a nod to the celebrated cinema classic from 1955 and the actor whose legacy is so closely linked with that particular movie.

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 01-10-2024).]

82-T/A [At Work] JAN 10, 08:15 AM

quote
Originally posted by BingB:I still disagree. Acknowledging what happened in the past does not make us weaker. It makes us stronger. People who refuse to acknowledge the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.



There's a false equivalency here. You can very easily acknowledge the past, without attacking the people that made this country, even if they were imperfect (and in this case, this guy was friends with everyone and even friends with native Americans). You've stated here basically that you supported NPS's desire to eliminate the statue of him. That's "erasure," in quite a literal sense. If you're going to tear down that statue and replace it with one of Native Americans... what exactly then is the message you're (NPS) trying to convey? They very individual who made "welcome" possible is William Penn... who is the one we're commemorating. Regardless of what he intended the land to be for 200+ years ago.



quote
Originally posted by BingB:And I still don't understand the details of how this is supposed to work. I don't see any connection between "We need to acknowledge the role the native Americans played in our country's history" and "Lets give all our power to the UN". How specifically does "A" lead to "B".



I think this is a dishonest question, because I think what I said was quite clear. I'll try to be succinct as possible.

Do you understand the concept of an "oligarch?" There are people with great power who seek to build a more globally "complicit" society. There is no silly group like Illuminati or some nonsense conspiracy... but the end-goal for a lot of these individuals is a "global" ruling government. Each of these individuals (oligarchs, and those with international wealth/power) have a totally different concept of what would result from a global ruling government. For some it's self serving, for others it's doing God's work... (no famine, wealth distribution, whatever). But that's the end-goal for people like Soros, Klaus Schwab, etc. So, this isn't my opinion, they've conveyed this as something they believe the world needs.

BREAK...

Americans, at least during the 80s and 90s, had a sense of very strong "American pride." This pride was the idea that our Constitution, and our founding was next to Godliness... that the U.S. Constitution is one of the greatest creations among man, far exceeding that of the wheel and the moon landing. Now, understand with my paragraph above... the single GREATEST road block to the creation of a global society is the United States... because our Constitutional law has very strict provisions that prevent any ceding of sovereignty to external powers. Furthermore, our Constitutional law enshrines "rights" that have long since been eliminated (or even eroded away) in every other major society.

Now... what is the biggest major hurdle to building a more compliant United States to join the fold of a more global society? The Constitution. Who or what is the most ardent supporter of the U.S. Constitution... the population. How can you eliminate the U.S. Constitution, or erode away it's power? Convince the people that it's the right thing to do. So by slowly eroding away the pride Americans have for the institution of what is our Constitutional law, they can eventually change and overturn it. You do this by convincing people that what prior generations thought was good, is actually bad... that we must apologize for. This is really important what I'm about to say...

If you can convince an entire generation that their country was founded on evil deeds, you can easily convince them that there's a better alternative.

So you see... tearing down statues, re-writing history, using DEI and other propagandist ideology in our educational system, that builds a sense of hate and disgust on the founding of our country... one in which today's generation would snap their fingers and replace if they could. Take my daughter for example... the overwhelming vast majority of her friends believe that Communism is a really good thing. My daughter is beside herself... my mom was born in Argentina and fled the Peronistas. I basically spent the majority of my adult life in South Florida with my Cuban friends, all of whom fled Communism. My dad was literally born in a shed in the Netherlands during the occupation by the National Socialist Worker's Party (NAZIs). My grandfather spent 25 years of his life fighting Communism for the CIA in the 60s and 70s. I was even raised in the 80s. So you see... being anti-Communist (and for good reason), is every fiber of my being... as it is my daughter's.

But her friends have had a different education than mine. They're taught that every Communist country would have succeeded had it not been for the evil Americans. They try to tell my daughter that under Communism (which they think we should have here in the U.S.), everyone would have everything. There would be no need as there are enough resources for everyone. They do not understand that by human nature alone... resources are acquired and developed through initiative... not coercive government slavery in Communism.

I think I've been as clear as I absolutely can... you don't have to agree with it... but surely you understand now what I'm saying. There are two kinds of people who support these kinds of things... there are people like YOU, who believe they are truly doing good... and believe that replacing a statue of William Penn to one of Native Americans is being more inclusive and righting a wrong. But then you have the other individuals... the one who initiate these things... that being those in the current administration who initiated this. Their intention isn't to right a wrong, but erase the iconography that makes us proud, and replaces it with images that make us believe we're founded on hatred. If this country wasn't intentionally designed as a Republic... we'd already have a new Constitution by now that was more complicit with the prevailing winds of society, and more susceptible to propaganda and indoctrination.
rinselberg JAN 10, 11:18 AM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
There's a false equivalency here. You can very easily acknowledge the past, without attacking the people that made this country, even if they were imperfect (and in this case, this guy was friends with everyone and even friends with native Americans). You've stated here basically that you supported NPS's desire to eliminate the statue of him. That's "erasure," in quite a literal sense. If you're going to tear down that statue and replace it with one of Native Americans... what exactly then is the message you're (NPS) trying to convey? They very individual who made "welcome" possible is William Penn... who is the one we're commemorating. Regardless of what he intended the land to be for 200+ years ago.


I didn't pick up anywhere that this plan for Welcome Park 2.0 (as I've called it) called for replacing the statue of William Penn with a statue to represent Native Americans.

Maybe the people who came up with this plan had ideas about the aesthetics of park design that were moving away from that ever so conventional "staple" of public space, the realistic looking statue of the historical person or group.

What specifically is known to the general public (and to any member of this forum) about the plan for Welcome Park 2.0?

Was there a plan to relocate this statue of William Penn to another meaningful location?

I look at this paragraph from 82-T/A and I have that queasy feeling that many of us (may) have when we see (maybe on TV) a downhill skier that has literally gotten ahead of his skis and is about to take a tumble—or worse, collide with something.
BingB JAN 10, 12:34 PM

quote
Originally posted by randye:
If by "acknowledging" you mean feelings of guilt, constant apologies and self-flagellation for events of the past, then you are WRONG.

Feeling perpetual guilt, to the point of personal apologies and constant self-loathing, for things that you had nothing personally to do with IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR.

Do you "acknowledge" the Holocaust?
Do you feel guilty for it and make apologies for it?

How about the "Trail of Tears"? You losing sleep over that one?

Is old "Willy Penn" causing you severe angst?





Why would I feel any "self loathing"? I didn't do anything to the native Americans. But I don't see any problem with acknowledging their history in this country.

And I don't have any problem with William Penn. He was a great man. But there are still two other statues honoring him in the same city.

So why can't honor the memory of BOTH instead of just one?

BingB JAN 10, 12:43 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
You've stated here basically that you supported NPS's desire to eliminate the statue of him. That's "erasure," in quite a literal sense. If you're going to tear down that statue and replace it with one of Native Americans... what exactly then is the message you're (NPS) trying to convey? They very individual who made "welcome" possible is William Penn... who is the one we're commemorating. Regardless of what he intended the land to be for 200+ years ago.


I never said anything about "erasure". What I said is that there are already two other statues of William Penn in the city. In order for me to be accused of "erasure" I would have to be asking to remove all 3 statues.

What I suggest is that we honor BOTH the history of the Native Americans AND William Penn.
82-T/A [At Work] JAN 10, 01:05 PM

quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

I didn't pick up anywhere that this plan for Welcome Park 2.0 (as I've called it) called for replacing the statue of William Penn with a statue to represent Native Americans.

Maybe the people who came up with this plan had ideas about the aesthetics of park design that were moving away from that ever so conventional "staple" of public space, the realistic looking statue of the historical person or group.

What specifically is known to the general public (and to any member of this forum) about the plan for Welcome Park 2.0?

Was there a plan to relocate this statue of William Penn to another meaningful location?

I look at this paragraph from 82-T/A and I have that queasy feeling that many of us (may) have when we see (maybe on TV) a downhill skier that has literally gotten ahead of his skis and is about to take a tumble—or worse, collide with something.





Per the FY23 NPS Budgeting "President proposes $3.6 billion budget for the National Park Service in FY23": https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1207/2023-budget.htm

"The National Park Service plays an important role in connecting Americans to our interwoven history, culture, and environment. This funding is essential to help us continue to improve vital infrastructure, increase equity and inclusion, and tackle the climate crisis."


... which further goes into detail (copy / paste):


Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Accessibility Initiative

The FY 2023 NPS budget proposes targeted increases of $48 million servicewide to advance racial justice and equity for underserved communities. Many of the newest additions to the National Park System preserve the stories of under-represented communities, and the FY 2023 budget requests new funds to support their operations, including Medgar and Myrlie Evers Home National Monument, Camp Nelson National Monument, and Pullman National Monument. Programs such as the African American Civil Rights Network, Underground Railroad Network to Freedom, and Tribal Heritage grants reflect this commitment.

The additional $48 million requested in the budget includes:

$14.3 million for operational increases at parks that preserve the stories of under-represented communities, including many of the newest parks
$5.0 million to support African American Civil Rights Network partnerships
$5.7 million to increase capacity at parks and central offices to strengthen partnerships and improve coordination with Tribes.
$8.0 million for grants to Tribal Historic Preservation Offices.
$5.0 million to improve park accessibility by implementing an interdisciplinary network support model, including facility access, accessible programming, recreational experiences and technology
$5.0 million to address transportation barriers to parks from underserved communities
$5.0 million for large-scale competitive African American Civil Rights historic preservation grants
... there's further documentation for the line-items in the NPS's action plan to better represent "underserved communities," etc... which talks about better representing them, etc. This is all part of that rehabilitation plan.



quote
Originally posted by BingB:

I never said anything about "erasure". What I said is that there are already two other statues of William Penn in the city. In order for me to be accused of "erasure" I would have to be asking to remove all 3 statues.

What I suggest is that we honor BOTH the history of the Native Americans AND William Penn.



This is an NPS site. It has nothing to do with state parks. They operate totally independently and have nothing to do with each other... and have no bearing on whether or not NPS feels the need to support one.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 01-10-2024).]