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| 1st and 2nd doesnt exist because I said so (Page 2/7) |
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fredtoast
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SEP 11, 01:02 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
our Federal Constitution enshrines this right for the people to have guns. Not mincing words, it's for the sole purpose of ensuring that the government is on notice that if it gets out of line, the people can and will right the wrong. |
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Actually people who read the Constitution know this is not true.
The "sole purpose" of the 2nd amendment was to maintain a well regulated militia to defend our country because we had no standing army.
Section 3 of Article 3 makes it a crime to take up arms against the United States government.
Not mincing words, but if you read the Constitution that is what it actually says. The Founding Fathers in no way supported taking up arms against the government they had created. they set it up so that citizens could change the government through the ballot box instead of armed insurrection. The militia was needed to repel threats from foreign forces or even US citizens (see Whiskey Rebellion)[This message has been edited by fredtoast (edited 09-11-2023).]
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fredtoast
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SEP 11, 01:06 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
She's even more or less said that the U.S. Constitution is not "absolute," which... she's wrong, because it actually is absolute, that's the point of it. |
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She is correct that "emergency powers" granted by the legislature are Constitutional. The legislature can give the executive branch the power to make rules that much violate thew Constitution under "emergency situations".
I am not familiar with the laws in new Mexico, but I agree with most people here that she seems to be stepping over the line.
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Doug85GT
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SEP 11, 09:51 PM
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If you allow the government to suspend rights during an emergency, then they will manufacture emergencies to suspend rights.
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fredtoast
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SEP 12, 12:01 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Doug85GT:
If you allow the government to suspend rights during an emergency, then they will manufacture emergencies to suspend rights. |
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But you have to allow the government to do it in times of emergency. This is not in dispute. Every legislature agrees.
And while I agree with your concern, your logic will be taken to the extreme by some people who claim no emergency ever exists. And we know that is not true.[This message has been edited by fredtoast (edited 09-12-2023).]
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olejoedad
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SEP 12, 08:05 AM
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82-T/A [At Work]
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SEP 12, 08:50 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by fredtoast:
Actually people who read the Constitution know this is not true.
The "sole purpose" of the 2nd amendment was to maintain a well regulated militia to defend our country because we had no standing army.
Section 3 of Article 3 makes it a crime to take up arms against the United States government.
Not mincing words, but if you read the Constitution that is what it actually says. The Founding Fathers in no way supported taking up arms against the government they had created. they set it up so that citizens could change the government through the ballot box instead of armed insurrection. The militia was needed to repel threats from foreign forces or even US citizens (see Whiskey Rebellion) |
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ACTUALLY ...
You're wrong as hell... Fred... I can't keep doing this with you. You've been utterly wrong in every case about the Constitution thus far.
Direct quote:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
There are TWO points here:
- A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state.
- The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
THESE are two separate things. It's extremely clear for anyone OTHER than radical liberals who are told what to believe.
As you say... read the text. Well, I did... I also minored in English and this is well understood. But in case YOU don't understand it, you also have the Articles of Confederation, the Federalist Papers, and the notes following the Constitutional Convention to understand what they meant.
“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787
“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes…. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” – Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776
“If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28
“Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.” – James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788
... and in case you were curious what they meant about a militia:
“I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.” – George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788
And just in case you STILL had any question as to what the 2nd amendment means...
“The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” – Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788
... and if that isn't enough, this has been affirmed, re-affirmed, and again re-affirmed by the Supreme Court. It's time to ACCEPT the reality, and not what you WANT it to be.[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 09-12-2023).]
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cliffw
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SEP 12, 09:15 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by fredtoast:
Ever since the Whisky Rebellion we have recognized the need for "emergency powers" in the hands of the executive. the legislative branch just moves to slowly to address emergencies. The question is usually "Is this an emergency that justifies implementing executive emergency powers" |
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The first question should be "is it really an emergency". The second question should be "who defines an emergency".
Executive powers only apply to government employees.[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 09-22-2023).]
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cliffw
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SEP 12, 09:26 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by rinselberg:
There's a lunatic reductionism that characterizes the Politics (& Religion) forum commentaries of Wichita, and one other forum member that I could name—but would rather not.
It's a reductionism in which the word "Leftist" or one of its analogues is offered in a careless and unthinking way as a kind of political and cultural Theory of Everything. |
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Look ! rinselberg was asleep when they educated about Rules for Radicals. By Saul Alynskey, a founding father of Progressives.
rinselberg, what is the first thing leftoid politicians call conservatives ?
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williegoat
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SEP 12, 11:24 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
ACTUALLY ...
You're wrong as hell... Fred... I can't keep doing this with you. You've been utterly wrong in every case about the Constitution thus far.
Direct quote:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
There are TWO points here:
- A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state.
- The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
THESE are two separate things. It's extremely clear for anyone OTHER than radical liberals who are told what to believe.
As you say... read the text. Well, I did... I also minored in English and this is well understood. But in case YOU don't understand it, you also have the Articles of Confederation, the Federalist Papers, and the notes following the Constitutional Convention to understand what they meant.
“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787
“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes…. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” – Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776
“If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28
“Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.” – James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788
... and in case you were curious what they meant about a militia:
“I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.” – George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788
And just in case you STILL had any question as to what the 2nd amendment means...
“The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” – Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788
... and if that isn't enough, this has been affirmed, re-affirmed, and again re-affirmed by the Supreme Court. It's time to ACCEPT the reality, and not what you WANT it to be.
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^ Good stuff. ^
If toast is who he says he is, he has been exposed to all of that. He chooses to ignore it because the ideas that made America the greatest nation the world has ever known are contrary to his personal philosophy.
What he claims and what he demonstrates are two very different things. E.Furgal was the same way.
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MidEngineManiac
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SEP 12, 11:27 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by fredtoast:
But you have to allow the government to do it in times of emergency. This is not in dispute. Every legislature agrees.
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No, I do not have to allow them to take what is mine.
This IS in dispute
I dont give a rats ass what they agree on. I live by my opinion, not theirs.
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