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| The start of my Journey! (Page 1/4) |
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NewDustin
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JAN 31, 01:02 AM
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NewDustin
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JAN 31, 01:23 AM
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I know I want a 3800sc, and I'm pretty sure I want an F23 5-speed to go with it. My end goal isn't going to be crazy, but I'd like just north of 300hp out of the engine and really like the F23 as an upgrade for the transmission. Since the old engine is already out and all of the nastiness has a first pass at cleaning it, I figured out would start on the rear frame. It was pretty gross:
I figured that won't do, so I pulled off the mounts and such, dug out the wire brushes and got to work:
...turns out that's a LOT of effort for very little payoff. Time to go to Youtube! I found this guy, and he likes beer so I trust him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI37gjF2_cc
Looks like I need some materials! So I ordered the frame paint stuff he used and went off to Harbor Freight to buy the highest quality tools one can buy. And also ZEP. Lots of ZEP. Lemme tell ya, a bunch of ZEP, a powerwasher and scrubbing, a pick set, an angle grinder, and a few wire wheels make a hell of a difference:
I finally got all of the scale-y rust and almost all of the paint off. I preferred the braided wire wheel for most of the job, if anyone is interested. I also used a drill and wire brush to get into some of the hard-to-reach areas.
Tonight I finally got to PRE the entire rear frame, and got the first coat of rust encapsulator on. I still need to do some touch up and the bottom of the frame, but I'll get to that tomorrow:
I have FieroRog's mounts coming in the mail, and need to start sourcing an engine. I plan to use FieroAustin's guide for the 3800sc build up and installation. Since I'm doing the F23, I think I'm going to source one of the new transmissions from dfkitcar.com, and the mounts from West Coast Fieros. I know a lot of people have had issues with their shipping, but I'm close enough to visit in person (I'm in Vegas, they're in Tehachapi).
I need to get in touch with Amida and place an order for one of his dash/interior kits. Given that mine is as bad as it is it seems prudent to just replace as much as I can. Does anyone have any advice on that?
Beyond that, any advice about where/what/how I should do things next?[This message has been edited by NewDustin (edited 02-21-2024).]
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82-T/A [At Work]
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JAN 31, 08:53 AM
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Just some comments...
This is an awesome project, and you will get a LOT of help here from Pennocks. It's a great community, and there are a lot of options available to you.
Second, even though the car looks really rough in the first picture, I'll tell you that you're starting out with a VERY good car. For one, you've got an 88, which... while parts are becoming a little scarce for suspension / brakes, it's an excellent year and an excellent model specifically. The Formula body is very sleek, and it's a fantastic platform to start off with. To top it off, yours is also naturally a manual transmission which at least provides you with all the parts you'd need (and already installed) when going with a manual transmission. I did a conversion, and there's a lot of things people don't think about beyond pedal, shifter, and transmission. Finally, the car is actually in fantastic shape. The dash is a little cracked, and it's suffering from all the things you get in the South West... essentially being sun-baked. But the chassis is totally rust free... and that's becoming harder and harder to find. We don't get much rust here in Florida either (despite the humidity), but pretty much everywhere else in the country aside from the deep South (Texas) and the South-West... all the cars are slowly rotting from rust. So you did absolutely awesome. That chassis looks unbent, and like new.
Paint will be the most expensive thing, and honestly... you can just get to that when you do.
I think it's awesome, and I look forward to all the questions, pictures, and updates!!!
There's a couple of good sites beyond Pennocks... you have Ogre's Cave (link on the main page of Pennocks), and I also have my own website that I put together like 15 years ago. It shows... it's very early 2000s / late 90s. I literally wrote it in Notepad, but there's a lot of pictures, images, and different things you can look at with respect to rare Fiero options and whatever... so feel free to check it out if you're bored. I was big on taking pictures back in the day... https://www.pontiacperformance.net/
Note, I switched over from a Windows hosted server to a Linux-based one... which if you know, is case sensitive (unlike Windows), so a bunch of the images are broken. Normally... that's the file extension. So if there's an image you really want to see but it's not showing up, just change the .JPG to .jpg (or vice versa). I'll eventually get around to updating the page.
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NewDustin
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JAN 31, 11:43 AM
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Thanks 82-T/A!
Honestly, how rough it looked was part of what sold me on it. I have been pleasantly surprised by how nice everything has been under the crust and funk that've built up on everything. I am missing some of the rear end parts (axels, control arms, ball joints...). There are a few 88 formulas in car yards around here with mostly-complete rear ends that I'm planning to source the missing parts from (unless there are relatively easy/common sense swaps/upgrades, but I haven't really seen those).
I've been on Ogre's Cave quite a bit, but that is my first time seeing your site. That's going to be super helpful as well, thanks! I've spent quite a bit of time working with Linux and Windows, and am familiar with the pain of moving an old Windows webserver to ext4. If you ever want to nerd out about SysAdmin/programming/security stuff let me know!
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NewDustin
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JAN 31, 01:38 PM
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Additivewalnut
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JAN 31, 02:51 PM
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I just recently finished a series 2 swap and parts have been abundant and easy to find, and the swap was easy. Made easier by the little things like having a cable throttle instead of trying to figure out drive by wire. Generally the series 2 is cheaper and the only benefit *I* know of with the series 3 is the better supercharger and returnless fuel rail, which you could just swap on to a cheaper series 2. I got my engine from a yard near me for 300 bucks, refreshed the gaskets, new waterpump, and sent it. Runs fantastic and now doesn't leak anything! [This message has been edited by Additivewalnut (edited 01-31-2024).]
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82-T/A [At Work]
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JAN 31, 03:48 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
Thanks 82-T/A!
Honestly, how rough it looked was part of what sold me on it. I have been pleasantly surprised by how nice everything has been under the crust and funk that've built up on everything. I am missing some of the rear end parts (axels, control arms, ball joints...). There are a few 88 formulas in car yards around here with mostly-complete rear ends that I'm planning to source the missing parts from (unless there are relatively easy/common sense swaps/upgrades, but I haven't really seen those).
I've been on Ogre's Cave quite a bit, but that is my first time seeing your site. That's going to be super helpful as well, thanks! I've spent quite a bit of time working with Linux and Windows, and am familiar with the pain of moving an old Windows webserver to ext4. If you ever want to nerd out about SysAdmin/programming/security stuff let me know! |
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I would definitely get out there and get anything and everything you think you might need / want from those Fieros. Back in the day... (like, early 2000s), I used to see a Pontiac Fiero in the junkyard every week... there were usually at least a couple of them... with lots of rare ones. I don't see any of that stuff anymore. Parts are quickly... quickly disappearing. There's a lot of common parts you can get on Rock Auto, but 88s have some unique parts that are 1-year only. So I'd definitely recommend you get whatever you need... including brakes and control arms... whatever you're missing. You should be able to source new ball joints though...
Yeah... the switch to Linux hosting was not something I did... but the host provider did, haha... and well, I found out. Haha...
| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:Just a few pics of the trunk and a question about the engine bay!
Trunk was the first place I checked for rust, and after removing all of the carpeting and nastiness from under it, I was very pleasantly surprised:
Where I'm at now is next steps. I'm waiting for paint to dry, mounts to arrive and engine selection/sourcing to happen. I want to minimize the amount of engine rebuilding I do and focus more on performance upgrades. I think I want a series III, even though I know there are some complications with it as opposed to a Series II. I'm seriously considering buying a renewed engine; while that's going to be ~twice as expensive as trying to rebuild something myself, I think I'd rather focus on performance upgrades rather than rebuilding. Does anyone have additional feedback on that?
While I'm waiting on that I'm planning to finish stripping out the engine bay so I can clean/repaint it. My plan is to photo document and label everything, but more or less strip everything out for cleaning/painting:
Any thoughts/feedback on that? |
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So one thing that struck me when looking at your pictures... it looks like your trunk has been smashed in from within the engine compartment, towards the rear.
This is the only picture I could find... but this is what your trunk should look like:
Note, this isn't my picture, but in this picture above, there's some metal missing above the rear drivers side wheel well... so ignore that, but the size / shape of the depth of the trunk is what you shoudl be looking at. Just from your pictures, it looks like it's been bashed in. I don't know if the previous owner did that on purpose, or if it was an accident... but I'm not aware of any of the normal transverse engine swaps that would require you to modify the trunk in this way... so I'm guessing it's unintentional or the prior owner did something weird.
Otherwise, I think it's a good plan. Your car basically has no rust on it at all... except the battery tray. I'd recommend replacing the battery tray if the rust there is more than surface rust. The Fiero Store sells new ones that weld right in. The Fiero Store actually has a whole kit for super cheap ($89) which comes with a few things: https://www.fierostore.com/...px?s=50254&d=176&p=1
It also includes the black plastic surround that helps shield from heat, etc:
As for the engine bay itself... I'd recommend tearing out all of the foam surround. All it does is just collect dust. You can buy much better sound deadening material that sticks right on. I also recommend spraying the inside of the car (along the firewall with the carpet, seats, etc... all removed) with some kind of rubberized undercoating material. Like the "Lizardskin" stuff they sell. That'll help quiet down the sounds you don't want to hear (lifter noise, etc.), but you'll still have the nice "piston symphony" in the engine cabin.[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 01-31-2024).]
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NewDustin
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JAN 31, 04:11 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Additivewalnut:
I just recently finished a series 2 swap and parts have been abundant and easy to find, and the swap was easy. Made easier by the little things like having a cable throttle instead of trying to figure out drive by wire. Generally the series 2 is cheaper and the only benefit *I* know of with the series 3 is the better supercharger and returnless fuel rail, which you could just swap on to a cheaper series 2. I got my engine from a yard near me for 300 bucks, refreshed the gaskets, new waterpump, and sent it. Runs fantastic and now doesn't leak anything!
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This seems like a good way to go. I don't want to spend too much time rebuilding, but that's a LOT less than a renewed engine will cost.
| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
So one thing that struck me when looking at your pictures... it looks like your trunk has been smashed in from within the engine compartment, towards the rear.
This is the only picture I could find... but this is what your trunk should look like:
Note, this isn't my picture, but in this picture above, there's some metal missing above the rear drivers side wheel well... so ignore that, but the size / shape of the depth of the trunk is what you shoudl be looking at. Just from your pictures, it looks like it's been bashed in. I don't know if the previous owner did that on purpose, or if it was an accident... but I'm not aware of any of the normal transverse engine swaps that would require you to modify the trunk in this way... so I'm guessing it's unintentional or the prior owner did something weird.
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Thank you for pointing that out! Looking at it, it looks like they lowered it down onto something when the rear end was removed. It doesn't look 'bashed' but pushed cleanly in; it's even enough I hadn't even noticed it was out of place. I wonder if I can push it back out; might give that a try.
| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Otherwise, I think it's a good plan. Your car basically has no rust on it at all... except the battery tray. I'd recommend replacing the battery tray if the rust there is more than surface rust. The Fiero Store sells new ones that weld right in. The Fiero Store actually has a whole kit for super cheap ($89) which comes with a few things: https://www.fierostore.com/...px?s=50254&d=176&p=1
It also includes the black plastic surround that helps shield from heat, etc:
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I actually think I'm gonna put the battery up front, but yeah that battery tray is off to the great beyond. I remember some threads on the battery move, and figure now that everything will be pulled apart why the heck not.
| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
As for the engine bay itself... I'd recommend tearing out all of the foam surround. All it does is just collect dust. You can buy much better sound deadening material that sticks right on. I also recommend spraying the inside of the car (along the firewall with the carpet, seats, etc... all removed) with some kind of rubberized undercoating material. Like the "Lizardskin" stuff they sell. That'll help quiet down the sounds you don't want to hear (lifter noise, etc.), but you'll still have the nice "piston symphony" in the engine cabin.
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You, sir, just confirmed my afternoon task 
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82-T/A [At Work]
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JAN 31, 04:31 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by NewDustin:
Thank you for pointing that out! Looking at it, it looks like they lowered it down onto something when the rear end was removed. It doesn't look 'bashed' but pushed cleanly in; it's even enough I hadn't even noticed it was out of place. I wonder if I can push it back out; might give that a try. |
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Ok, yeah, that's what I thought. When it's in proper form, it should be large enough to fit a 215/60/15 Fiero GT wheel+tire comfortably back there with the trunk lid closed. Or as the advertisements would say... "Two full sized golf bags."
As for moving the battery tray to the front... I think there was a kit that someone made, I can't remember. One kit I remember seeing, you would remove the spare tire. The other... you'd flip it over and the battery sat somewhat inside the middle of it.[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 01-31-2024).]
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Patrick
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JAN 31, 06:36 PM
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I only hope your daughter isn't entering high school by the time this project is roadworthy. 
You're off to a great start though!