88 Fiero GT vs. 01 Honda Insight: Which car is more groundbreaking? (Page 1/1)
pgackeman JUL 15, 11:23 AM
My neighbor wanted to do a comparison video between my 1988 Pontiac Fiero GT and his 2001 Honda Insight. Below is the result. Have a look If you don't mind spending twenty minutes of your life looking at 20+ year old cars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhszH7_V5QE

BTW, I don't sound like that.
cvxjet JUL 15, 12:57 PM
Nice Video.....very honest. I actually like the look of the Insight- But I like anything that is designed to "Do it's job" so even if it's styling ain't zingy, it looks very aerodynamic, and the rear pants are logical. Much better looking than the Prius!

I have thought for 10 years or so, that all vehicles should have a regen braking system; Most hybrids are >>More<< complicated than regular cars, but GM had their trucks a decade ago with a mild-hybrid system that replaced the flywheel with a combo Starter/generator.....When you stepped on the brake, the generator would do a substantial amount of the braking, sending the generated electricity to a battery, then when you accel'd, the mootor/battery would do a substantial amount of the acceleration.

This system is at least no more complicated than a separate Alt-Starter-flywheel setup....With AGM batteries it wouldn't add much weight, either.

I believe (Like a religious fanatic) in the acronym "K.I.S.S." (Keep it simple, stupid!) Most new engineers apparently could not SPELL that!
Thunderstruck GT JUL 15, 02:52 PM
You cannot compare apples to oranges and Honda was not the first hybrid.

Ferdinand Porsche made the first hybrid vehicle.

Pontiac made the first mass produced American built mid-engine vehicle.

Two totally different animals that have nothing in common that can be compared.
hyperv6 JUL 15, 05:21 PM
I see both as neither ground breaking.

The Honda was just another forgettable Hybrid.

The Fiero was ground breaking in construction but it did not last. GM tried to keep the space frame deal but tight panel gaps and no major cost savings kind of relegated the idea gone.

Now had the space frame idea had continued and still was used in a majority of cars today then yes it would be ground breaking in automotive history.

As for mid engine ehh we have had engine front back mid for over a century with most sitting up front yet.

The term ground breaking is like rare and is over used. It should only be applied to vehicle holding influence over many cars for many decades.

cvxjet JUL 15, 07:26 PM
Hyper- to some extent I agree with you. But, I think the Fiero was ground-breaking in one definitive area; Quality control- The Japanese were taught Quality control by Edward Deming 1950-1970 which really had an affect on their market share, but US manufacturers were slow to accept any changes in Quality control ("We are the BIGGEST! We don't need quality!")

The Fiero was the first US car to be built using the TQM process....GM could have learned from this but arrogance plus the (Non-TQM sourced) Push-rod debacle stopped it's implementation. Later, Saturn would use this process again...and once again, GM Management STOMPED on the process, wrecking Saturn finally.

Now, GM has embraced TQM and Chevy has had the highest average quality for quite a few years (Although the Tonda lovers will never accept this!)

So, although the line between Fiero TQM and modern TQM acceptance is a bit shaky and hard to follow, I think the Fiero does deserve some credit for it.

As for the space frame, yes the 1st generation (Fiero) was heavy, and the 2nd gen (Saturn) still wasn't a huge improvement....Now, almost all of the new supercars are using it (Accepting that they use carbon-composite tubs while the Fiero used....steel (Yech!)

A new Fiero with an Aluminum and HSS tub and better body panels- plus aluminum suspension and LS4 engine would be a very interesting car....350 hp in a 2300 lb car.....That should blow a few minds- especially at $30,000.....
88Fingers JUL 15, 07:38 PM
cvxjet, I agree with all you said save for one thing. The new Fiero would house the LGX V6 and produce 340 HP in Fiero trim. That is an excellent engine! IMHO of course.
hyperv6 JUL 15, 09:29 PM

quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Hyper- to some extent I agree with you. But, I think the Fiero was ground-breaking in one definitive area; Quality control- The Japanese were taught Quality control by Edward Deming 1950-1970 which really had an affect on their market share, but US manufacturers were slow to accept any changes in Quality control ("We are the BIGGEST! We don't need quality!")

The Fiero was the first US car to be built using the TQM process....GM could have learned from this but arrogance plus the (Non-TQM sourced) Push-rod debacle stopped it's implementation. Later, Saturn would use this process again...and once again, GM Management STOMPED on the process, wrecking Saturn finally.

Now, GM has embraced TQM and Chevy has had the highest average quality for quite a few years (Although the Tonda lovers will never accept this!)

So, although the line between Fiero TQM and modern TQM acceptance is a bit shaky and hard to follow, I think the Fiero does deserve some credit for it.

As for the space frame, yes the 1st generation (Fiero) was heavy, and the 2nd gen (Saturn) still wasn't a huge improvement....Now, almost all of the new supercars are using it (Accepting that they use carbon-composite tubs while the Fiero used....steel (Yech!)

A new Fiero with an Aluminum and HSS tub and better body panels- plus aluminum suspension and LS4 engine would be a very interesting car....350 hp in a 2300 lb car.....That should blow a few minds- especially at $30,000.....




Wohh! Cowboy!

The Deming factor was ground breaking for GM but not for a dozen other automakers already using it. So that is a non factory in th3 big picture.

Today assembly and design issues still lurk and supplier issues still are problems with all MFGs. Low bidder often is at fault. Or like the GM 8 speeds it took two years and 3 fluids to fix the shudder issue and now man6 other companies struggle with similar issues.

Carbon was used in race cars long ago. Today the ground breaking is not the carbon as it is cheap materialize but expensive to produce as it is time consuming. The Carbon Pro bed in the GMC truck is the true ground breaker as it is cutting cost with molded carbon fiber.

As for the space frames used today they are just unibodies out of aluminum.

A new Fiero is irrelevant. It did not happen so any nit jib can come along and make all sorts of crazy claims that may or may not have happed.

To be honest according to the Pontiac people I spoke to few expected if a second gen came it would have lasted many years. They point to the fact many popular 2 seat cars at lower cost have very limited life’s.

#1 generally they sell in limited numbers and at a low price this limits profits. This is why most sports cars are expensive. Not everyone can live with a 2 seat car and few can justify a third or fourth car with a payment.

The MR2 died twice, the RX models several times the Z models 3 times, the British cars all died. Only the Vtte and Miata survive. The Vette because it has reached icon status and has remained a relevent car. The Miata due to global sales and careful marketing not to oversell any of the markets.

#2 you would not have a 2300 pound Fiero with a V8 For 30k. Hell 30k buys you little car today.

#3 most people today are into Jerps and trucks. I work in the Racing and performance market and the cars are dying. The new Bronco I hate to say is going to be a smash hit.

#4 Saturn died from neglect. GM started them then let them rot on the vine. The plastic panels left large panel gaps that looked horrible as the bodies need to grow as our Firefox due. Then in the end GM had too many divisions, the development cost and waste was great. Today they have it to a manageable level but they are too conservative in taking some risks. They have looked at a Jeep fighter but turned it down. They will regret this in the coming years.

The legacy of the Fiero is that it showed the skilled work and determination of Pontiac engineering. But it also highlighted the incompetence of GM management in how to run the company that was too big for its own good that led to waste that bankrupted them.

What happened with the Fiero happened at other divisions and on other models just in less dramatic or visible fashion. If GM had worked as one company vs a bunch of disconnected competing divisions they would never have failed. But that was not the case.

I still would love to put a book together to get The real facts out on the Fiero. One to set the story straight on the car and two to showcase the mess GM was and how it lead to the failure in 08.

The long and short here the Fiero is a unique car in GM history and the automotive market but it really did not set the course for the future in any major way. To be fair few cars ever do that as it is reserved for cars like the model T that drove prices to where a bout any American could Finally buy a car. Or for engines like the small block Chevy that quite literally has done it all.

Today it is the Corvette as it has lived longer than any other sports car and still brings high levels of performance still at a much lower price than any thing close to its performance. It is an i in as it has a large cult of owners and fans world wide, Jeep is similar as it help win a war and yet today is still very popular and able off road. It too is an icon flaws and all. As they say it’s a Jeep thing.
sourmash JUL 16, 09:08 AM
EDIT: regarding the Jeep war win statement---Looking at the results of what WWII secured for the world, I'm constantly in question of calling it a win.

[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 07-16-2020).]

hyperv6 JUL 16, 11:49 AM

quote
Originally posted by sourmash:

EDIT: regarding the Jeep war win statement---Looking at the results of what WWII secured for the world, I'm constantly in question of calling it a win.




The world has never been perfect after that first apple. All we can do since is try to balance it out and try to keep the balance.
johnyrottin JUL 17, 07:43 AM
Fiero! But I might be a bit biased...