Fiero's off spring (Page 2/4)
hyperv6 JUN 26, 09:24 AM
Well lets get some facts involved here.

Sports cars and cheap sports cars are normally short term cars that average 5-10 years at best. The problem is they generally make a big splash but at the volumes they sell at and the high cost of development they make it difficult to make a second gen in light of todays high cost. It is hard enough to make a business case for one today.

Mazda and the Corvette are two exceptions but most sports cars have seen short lives or where they come and go and come back to only go again like the Viper or MR2.

Mazda has done well with the Miata due to the fact it is a global car. They sell it everywhere so the volumes are much higher total but are made up of smaller volumes in each market. This has kept it safe to a point. But even then they had to share it with Fiat to spread out the cost.

The Corvette survived mostly due to the fact it was built with many shared parts to start. Later they chose to move it up in cost and make it a real performer that it is today but still under cut the others prices. Note the Corvette was canceled in the early 90's and the manager ignored the cancelation. That is the only reason we still have it today. He kept it and moved it to the C6 that sold well enough to earn a reprieve. But he paid the price with his job.

The Corvette did play a part in killing the Fiero but Pontiac did set the stage for them to have good reason to kill the car. Pontiac pissed off a lot of GM people so they made few friends. Then Pontiac over sold the car the first few years. The plant could build over 250K cars a year and as the Fiero dropped to normal numbers it put the plant at numbers that made it costly to build there. The GM 80 was to have come in to the plant but was canceled and once that happened the Vette guys had to protect their car as they are not a sure thing even today to get a business case approved.

The others like the Kappa Solstice, Sky and Lightning were all a hail Mary from Bob Lutz. Bob came in and tried to turn Pontiac around enough to make them worth saving but the G8, GTO and Solstice were way too late and all way under funded. GM was flat broke. None of these cars were perfect but for what they had to spend they were amazing they even made it to market.

The GTO did not get scoops the first year and the exhaust moved over because they were out of money.

The Corvair was killed by the Mustang. The Mustang was a very cheap car to build and the Corvair was not. GM moved on to the Camaro as it was cheaper to build a V8 Camaro than a Corvair . The Vair engine was expensive. Add to it the bad publicity and the fact the coming emissions in 1970 killed air cooled engines here. In time it even killed the Beetle and 911 air cooled.

The Cosworth was a Delorean deal. It was expensive to make and sell. The Vega had a bad rep for rust and engine issues already. The Cosworth really was advanced but not fast.

The GN was killed mostly do to the fact the RWD G body was killed and the RWD 3.8 engine was taken out of production. They used the last ones in the TA pace cars in 1989. They were old and GM just moved on to FWD and they did not fit. That is where the 3800SC came in and took over.

The fact is GM miss management of their divisions is what killed the Fiero. They were their own worst enemy. The Corvette guys just took advantage of the mistakes that Pontiac made.

The reality is Pontiac was set to die in in the early 80's not Olds. But this is what happened. The RWD Cutlass was killed their best seller. Then Pontiac pushed the Fiero and new TA. That brought many people to the dealers and many saw the new Grand Am and it became the volume champ of the non Chevy lines.


Many inside Pontiac never expected the Fiero to last beyond the second gen. Many feel it did its job in saving Pontiac back then. The Solstice even if Pontiac had lived may not have lasted much longer nor had a second gen. It was a way to bring excitement to a division that claimed excitement that had none when Lutz got there. The FWD GP was as exciting as it got. The G6 was a failure and the G5 never got he Turbo engine.

The Fiero program is a perfect case study on just how badly GM was operating and the kind of things that lead to them going Chapter 11. Each division worked against each other vs together and they would do harm if they saw it in their own self interest. Honda and Toyota did less harm to GM than they did to themselves.
cvxjet JUN 26, 11:21 AM
Hyper.....All of your post is very good, and true. Too bad that Auto industry managers/owners and journalists don't have this understanding of what is going on.......They usually know that round wheels/tires will................"Roll"
fierosound JUN 26, 11:25 AM

quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

... how badly GM was operating and the kind of things that lead to them going Chapter 11.
Each division worked against each other vs together and they would do harm if they saw it in their own self interest.
Honda and Toyota did less harm to GM than they did to themselves.



I agree 100%
hyperv6 JUN 26, 12:39 PM

quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Hyper.....All of your post is very good, and true. Too bad that Auto industry managers/owners and journalists don't have this understanding of what is going on.......They usually know that round wheels/tires will................"Roll"




We as enthusiast look at it as a life style and hobby. In the industry it is a job.

They look at it as in making a return on investment. Many do understand and they stand out like Bob Lutz but many will remain silent or not take risk as they want along career.

John Delorean had good instincts when it came to product and engineering. But when dealing with Management he failed horribly when if was challenging people who did not like him. It cost him the leadership of GM.

I would recommend reading his book On a Clear Day You Can See GM. Also I recommend all of Lutz books especially Car Guys Vs. Bean Counters. It is a good snap shot of how GM was or was not functioning.

Another is What Would Jesus Drive. It was written by a marketing guy who worked in the industry at Ford, Chrysler and Nissan. He lays it out on how they all have their issues.

The real issue is the media and those involved do not like to speak out as it can black ball them from the industry. I know with many of the Fiero people for years many would not speak or if they did it was off the record. They had good jobs and feared for their futures. There was a lot of hurt feelings on all sides on the Fiero. The media is careful not to stir things up too as they do not want to be cut out of future products.

I wish a good book could be put out on the Fiero to show just how GM operated at that time. It would show just how GM was failing to function. Also it would set the real story straight on the car. The media just keeps rehashing either just part of the story or the wrong story.

It is so bad even many owners just do not know or understand all the factors that were involved. It was not just the fires or the Corvette people it was a number of factors that were in play. Lots of company politics and just poor management on both sides.
hyperv6 JUN 26, 12:48 PM
Here is an example from Lutz book. He asked why they could not match Hyundai on panel gaps. The Engineer said he could do it if they wanted them. Lutz said why did you not do them. He said he was not told to. He was not permitted to ask and had to wait to be told. Lutz said you were just told. The 08 Malibu was the first example of the new gaps.

Lutz was looking at the new Impala. The designer said it would look better with chrome around the windows but it would put them over budget and he did not want to get in trouble. Lutz asked would you rather get in trouble being a little over budget on a car that sells well or would you rather be in budget and get in trouble for a car that did not sell well.

Guys like Lutz are risk takers in an industry that frowns on them When they get it right they get little credit and if they fail they get crucified.

Lutz took a risk on the HHR. Many said it was too much risk. In the end it sold well over 100K units per year and several almost 200K units a year. It was really a Cobalt wagon and they would never had sold that many Cobalt wagons.

But he missed on Hummer as it should have been a model not a brand. He said it should have been a GMC. It would have been cheaper to manage.

But Bob is fair on this. He said that we need a mix of money and engineering people to protect each other from each other. Getting that balance is important.
mousemeat JUN 26, 03:45 PM

quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

Well lets get some facts involved here.

Sports cars and cheap sports cars are normally short term cars that average 5-10 years at best. The problem is they generally make a big splash but at the volumes they sell at and the high cost of development they make it difficult to make a second gen in light of todays high cost. It is hard enough to make a business case for one today.

Mazda and the Corvette are two exceptions but most sports cars have seen short lives or where they come and go and come back to only go again like the Viper or MR2.

Mazda has done well with the Miata due to the fact it is a global car. They sell it everywhere so the volumes are much higher total but are made up of smaller volumes in each market. This has kept it safe to a point. But even then they had to share it with Fiat to spread out the cost.

The Corvette survived mostly due to the fact it was built with many shared parts to start. Later they chose to move it up in cost and make it a real performer that it is today but still under cut the others prices. Note the Corvette was canceled in the early 90's and the manager ignored the cancelation. That is the only reason we still have it today. He kept it and moved it to the C6 that sold well enough to earn a reprieve. But he paid the price with his job.

The Corvette did play a part in killing the Fiero but Pontiac did set the stage for them to have good reason to kill the car. Pontiac pissed off a lot of GM people so they made few friends. Then Pontiac over sold the car the first few years. The plant could build over 250K cars a year and as the Fiero dropped to normal numbers it put the plant at numbers that made it costly to build there. The GM 80 was to have come in to the plant but was canceled and once that happened the Vette guys had to protect their car as they are not a sure thing even today to get a business case approved.

The others like the Kappa Solstice, Sky and Lightning were all a hail Mary from Bob Lutz. Bob came in and tried to turn Pontiac around enough to make them worth saving but the G8, GTO and Solstice were way too late and all way under funded. GM was flat broke. None of these cars were perfect but for what they had to spend they were amazing they even made it to market.

The GTO did not get scoops the first year and the exhaust moved over because they were out of money.

The Corvair was killed by the Mustang. The Mustang was a very cheap car to build and the Corvair was not. GM moved on to the Camaro as it was cheaper to build a V8 Camaro than a Corvair . The Vair engine was expensive. Add to it the bad publicity and the fact the coming emissions in 1970 killed air cooled engines here. In time it even killed the Beetle and 911 air cooled.

The Cosworth was a Delorean deal. It was expensive to make and sell. The Vega had a bad rep for rust and engine issues already. The Cosworth really was advanced but not fast.

The GN was killed mostly do to the fact the RWD G body was killed and the RWD 3.8 engine was taken out of production. They used the last ones in the TA pace cars in 1989. They were old and GM just moved on to FWD and they did not fit. That is where the 3800SC came in and took over.

The fact is GM miss management of their divisions is what killed the Fiero. They were their own worst enemy. The Corvette guys just took advantage of the mistakes that Pontiac made.

The reality is Pontiac was set to die in in the early 80's not Olds. But this is what happened. The RWD Cutlass was killed their best seller. Then Pontiac pushed the Fiero and new TA. That brought many people to the dealers and many saw the new Grand Am and it became the volume champ of the non Chevy lines.


Many inside Pontiac never expected the Fiero to last beyond the second gen. Many feel it did its job in saving Pontiac back then. The Solstice even if Pontiac had lived may not have lasted much longer nor had a second gen. It was a way to bring excitement to a division that claimed excitement that had none when Lutz got there. The FWD GP was as exciting as it got. The G6 was a failure and the G5 never got he Turbo engine.

The Fiero program is a perfect case study on just how badly GM was operating and the kind of things that lead to them going Chapter 11. Each division worked against each other vs together and they would do harm if they saw it in their own self interest. Honda and Toyota did less harm to GM than they did to themselves.



....all valid points.....except the Miata was being produced close to 20 years, when Fiat joined it's party. The 'new' spyder..is just a miata with new sheet metal. The boys at mazda studied what made the MG's loved....and what people hated about them...they set out to build a two seater in the spirit of the B's and midgets...but without the problems those british cars brought....and it was priced to sell..over the years, they continued to upgrade it, fixed whatever glitches...and of course, raised the prices...hence, that car has an huge world wide following...and multiple forums-societies geared towards that little car....The Solstice was Lutz's baby, no doubt about it....but it did have some glitches, I know, because I bought one of the first off the assembly line in early 2006....and as sexy as it looks, compared to the ugky SKY (in my opinion) it had some problems..a noisy rear end...lackluster 5 speed...terrible interior. pain in the arse conv top to take down..overweight at almost 2800 pounds.....but if pontiac was allowed to live, I'm fairly certain that the 2nd generation of Solstices, would be vastly improved....but we will never know......and the same could be said for the Fiero ... GM dropped the ball.. but growing up in DETROIT, I saw first hand of that mind set..and I knew some engineers at GM....who whined about upper management and the bean counters.....
hyperv6 JUN 26, 07:28 PM

quote
Originally posted by mousemeat:


....all valid points.....except the Miata was being produced close to 20 years, when Fiat joined it's party. The 'new' spyder..is just a miata with new sheet metal. The boys at mazda studied what made the MG's loved....and what people hated about them...they set out to build a two seater in the spirit of the B's and midgets...but without the problems those british cars brought....and it was priced to sell..over the years, they continued to upgrade it, fixed whatever glitches...and of course, raised the prices...hence, that car has an huge world wide following...and multiple forums-societies geared towards that little car....The Solstice was Lutz's baby, no doubt about it....but it did have some glitches, I know, because I bought one of the first off the assembly line in early 2006....and as sexy as it looks, compared to the ugky SKY (in my opinion) it had some problems..a noisy rear end...lackluster 5 speed...terrible interior. pain in the arse conv top to take down..overweight at almost 2800 pounds.....but if pontiac was allowed to live, I'm fairly certain that the 2nd generation of Solstices, would be vastly improved....but we will never know......and the same could be said for the Fiero ... GM dropped the ball.. but growing up in DETROIT, I saw first hand of that mind set..and I knew some engineers at GM....who whined about upper management and the bean counters.....



I think I either was not clear or you misunderstood. Yes the Miata was the reliable British sports car. But what kept it alive is a global market. The global sales equate to 35k to 75k sales yearly. While American sales only account for 12-18k in sales.

This volume has kept it viable to invest in. But!

In recent years they gave the Miata a revamp but sales have trickled downward. This is why Fiat was brought in. This was Mazda’s way to save money to do a new gen. Sales are still stagnant.

The Fist is rebodied and is a larger car in length it only shares the platform and some mechanicals. It has its own suspension tune and its own engine. The Mazda is generally seen as the better car.

The Kappa was a car built on a budget. The rear diff was from a CTS. The car had bits and parts from a number of different GM cars even a GMC Envoy. It also was a show car that made it into production that often translates into issues like we see in the SSR and the 5th gen Camaro interior.

The bean counters were not at fault on the Solstice as GM was flat broke. They were broke much longer than most imagine.

The sales were so low on the Kappa at the end it would have been tough for even a healthy Pontiac tomapprove a new car.

2 seat cars are limited models as only so many people can own them, live with them or even afford them as a third car. Once you sell to that limited Group few rebuy till you have a revamp. This was clearly explained to me by a GM brand manager who was an engineer that also was an Alfa owner. His wife at the time was at team Corvette and he was at one time involved with the Fiero.

Mazda does a series of special editions but yet the global sales are still the key. If they do not increase sales by the next revamp it ma not make another round. If not for a Fiat it may have not made production this time.

The performance for the money has made the Corvette an Icon like Harley Davidson. But they have really had to work to remain viable as development cost are off the chart.

The bottom line is a company run by engineers will fail. A company run by bean counters will fail but the proper mix of both working together will thrive. This is not just my thinking but the same think Bob Lutz one of the best product guys in the industry states.

It is kind of like my marriage. I get the ideas and my wife helps pay for the worthy ones and rejects the dumb ones. It has really kept me from making major mistakes but we still enjoy life.


mousemeat JUN 27, 12:26 AM

quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


I think I either was not clear or you misunderstood. Yes the Miata was the reliable British sports car. But what kept it alive is a global market. The global sales equate to 35k to 75k sales yearly. While American sales only account for 12-18k in sales.

This volume has kept it viable to invest in. But!

In recent years they gave the Miata a revamp but sales have trickled downward. This is why Fiat was brought in. This was Mazda’s way to save money to do a new gen. Sales are still stagnant.

The Fist is rebodied and is a larger car in length it only shares the platform and some mechanicals. It has its own suspension tune and its own engine. The Mazda is generally seen as the better car.

The Kappa was a car built on a budget. The rear diff was from a CTS. The car had bits and parts from a number of different GM cars even a GMC Envoy. It also was a show car that made it into production that often translates into issues like we see in the SSR and the 5th gen Camaro interior.

The bean counters were not at fault on the Solstice as GM was flat broke. They were broke much longer than most imagine.

The sales were so low on the Kappa at the end it would have been tough for even a healthy Pontiac tomapprove a new car.

2 seat cars are limited models as only so many people can own them, live with them or even afford them as a third car. Once you sell to that limited Group few rebuy till you have a revamp. This was clearly explained to me by a GM brand manager who was an engineer that also was an Alfa owner. His wife at the time was at team Corvette and he was at one time involved with the Fiero.

Mazda does a series of special editions but yet the global sales are still the key. If they do not increase sales by the next revamp it ma not make another round. If not for a Fiat it may have not made production this time.

The performance for the money has made the Corvette an Icon like Harley Davidson. But they have really had to work to remain viable as development cost are off the chart.

The bottom line is a company run by engineers will fail. A company run by bean counters will fail but the proper mix of both working together will thrive. This is not just my thinking but the same think Bob Lutz one of the best product guys in the industry states.

It is kind of like my marriage. I get the ideas and my wife helps pay for the worthy ones and rejects the dumb ones. It has really kept me from making major mistakes but we still enjoy life.




Miata again, had 20 years, 20 years to constantly tweak the vehicle..unlike both the Fiero and Solstice, who had their production ended after 5 years. Corvette has been around for what, 65 years now ? that's an eternity....for any automobile, American, British, German, or Asian.....

yes, the Solstice was basically built by items from the GM shelf...heck, even the hummer donated something to the project...The Kappa platform was an exciting leap of faith for both GM and Pontiac....and think about it, The Fiero took certain things from other GM cards....and the original ford mustang, was basically an hep up ford falcon, with new sheet metal..with the 200 cu 6 cy...before they slapped the 289 v8 into it.......and car continue to change, before it got bloated up by 1973..those last mustangs, were as big as an house....until FORD rebooted the mustang II in what, 1974? or was it 1975.....and sadly, that mustang was an dismal failure on all fronts, including sales.....the fact being, most project cars are put together with odds and ends from other cars within that respected company...eventually, if the sales are there...they you'll eventually see the car evolve......or the plug gets pulled.....and yeah, two seater do have an limited audience.....9 times out of 10, most buyers know this...after all, how many Solstice, miata, or boxesters do you see at Kroger or Walmart ? not many I'm sure...

Pontiac had plans to continue the evolution of the Solstice...but those plans were nipped in the Bud, when GM send Pontiac packing...at one point GM considered building the Solstice somewhere else within GM...and they entertain an offer from DMC, to buy both the car, and the plant were the solstice was being made...but they decided not to and the solstice faded into history like the Fiero etc...a shame really.....I often think how different things might have turned out for either the Fiero , or the Solstice-Sky, if they were allowed to continue....but for better or worse, we still have both cars and both of these vehicles, have a loyal following...
hyperv6 JUN 27, 08:25 AM

quote
Originally posted by mousemeat:


Miata again, had 20 years, 20 years to constantly tweak the vehicle..unlike both the Fiero and Solstice, who had their production ended after 5 years. Corvette has been around for what, 65 years now ? that's an eternity....for any automobile, American, British, German, or Asian.....

yes, the Solstice was basically built by items from the GM shelf...heck, even the hummer donated something to the project...The Kappa platform was an exciting leap of faith for both GM and Pontiac....and think about it, The Fiero took certain things from other GM cards....and the original ford mustang, was basically an hep up ford falcon, with new sheet metal..with the 200 cu 6 cy...before they slapped the 289 v8 into it.......and car continue to change, before it got bloated up by 1973..those last mustangs, were as big as an house....until FORD rebooted the mustang II in what, 1974? or was it 1975.....and sadly, that mustang was an dismal failure on all fronts, including sales.....the fact being, most project cars are put together with odds and ends from other cars within that respected company...eventually, if the sales are there...they you'll eventually see the car evolve......or the plug gets pulled.....and yeah, two seater do have an limited audience.....9 times out of 10, most buyers know this...after all, how many Solstice, miata, or boxesters do you see at Kroger or Walmart ? not many I'm sure...

Pontiac had plans to continue the evolution of the Solstice...but those plans were nipped in the Bud, when GM send Pontiac packing...at one point GM considered building the Solstice somewhere else within GM...and they entertain an offer from DMC, to buy both the car, and the plant were the solstice was being made...but they decided not to and the solstice faded into history like the Fiero etc...a shame really.....I often think how different things might have turned out for either the Fiero , or the Solstice-Sky, if they were allowed to continue....but for better or worse, we still have both cars and both of these vehicles, have a loyal following...



Well the Mustang was another time but since it shared a platform it made it less of a risk to try.

The Miata changes have been minor. Special editions , wheels and an option or two. Much like they practice on the Camaro now with the Red Line etc. These changes take little to fund but their impact is minor as most owners will not move to a new model much like they already have they only drive on weekends.

The Solstice would have had a tough call to make a second gen. The numbers were down much by the time GM even said they were killing Pontiac. It was not an leap of faith but more a last chance shot to make Pontiac exciting again in a race against the clock that Lutz knew was a long shot. Those inside knew Pontiac was dying and GM just did not have the money to do Pontiac right or the management that understood them.

The Solstice job was to bring attention to the brand like the Fiero but they had nothing at the dealers to back like the Fiero did with the Grand Am.

Sports cars are not profit centers or even profit generators at low cost. That is why there are so few and why so many die young. They are mostly to attract attention for a while but then are seldom expected to live. Again the Miata only lives on careful global sales that few companies can offer.

Look down this link and see just what the production numbers are in each market for the Miata. Each is marginal to support the car but collectively they do. The Solstice and Fiero never had this and paid the price. Even then the odds were long they would have survived past a second gen even if they got one.

Porsche had tried the cheap sports car several times but failed. Today their cheap models are now much more expensive and to fill the gap of the 911 that is even more expensive today.

Ideally most models or platforms need to see 100K units at a average price of $35K. This will bring the return on investment to where they will see something. Even then they would like to see more. They can make a boring CUV and sell 3 times as many at a much higher ATP.

Today it is not about just making money but making more money per unit. Development cost are so high you see companies like Ford and GM joining to make transmissions and even now GM and Honda to share EV technology. GM has invested in tech and development as they want to be the go to company that works with others and it will reduce their cost on their projects.

Just a few years back BMW came to GM and paid them to make them a Auto Tranny. GM did so and was give the rights to it 2 years later for Cadillac. It became a free tranny for GM at that point anrf they did well. We will see more of this as many companies just can not make it without a dance partner anymore.

The Corvette will get more expensive as time goes on but they will try to keep it under the others. I expect Cadillac will get some kind of car based on it with their own engine again. This time I hope they do it right and not just rebody car. You have to make it different or it helps no one.

It will be interesting where this all goes as cars are dying at an alarming rate. Right now the Mustang and Camaro will go global as GT coupes to survive as American sales are no longer enough. They both died in the past before with the end of the Camaro and the Mustang II was really not a real Mustang. It could happen again if sales continue to decline.

The Truth is Cheap RWD performance is dead. Even Cheap FWD performance sucks. I did love my FWD turbo but you just can't get the power to the ground with the FWD. AWD moves it to $40K.

All this while kids today show less interest in cars than ever.
mousemeat JUN 27, 11:47 AM

quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


Well the Mustang was another time but since it shared a platform it made it less of a risk to try.

The Miata changes have been minor. Special editions , wheels and an option or two. Much like they practice on the Camaro now with the Red Line etc. These changes take little to fund but their impact is minor as most owners will not move to a new model much like they already have they only drive on weekends.

The Solstice would have had a tough call to make a second gen. The numbers were down much by the time GM even said they were killing Pontiac. It was not an leap of faith but more a last chance shot to make Pontiac exciting again in a race against the clock that Lutz knew was a long shot. Those inside knew Pontiac was dying and GM just did not have the money to do Pontiac right or the management that understood them.

The Solstice job was to bring attention to the brand like the Fiero but they had nothing at the dealers to back like the Fiero did with the Grand Am.

Sports cars are not profit centers or even profit generators at low cost. That is why there are so few and why so many die young. They are mostly to attract attention for a while but then are seldom expected to live. Again the Miata only lives on careful global sales that few companies can offer.

Look down this link and see just what the production numbers are in each market for the Miata. Each is marginal to support the car but collectively they do. The Solstice and Fiero never had this and paid the price. Even then the odds were long they would have survived past a second gen even if they got one.

Porsche had tried the cheap sports car several times but failed. Today their cheap models are now much more expensive and to fill the gap of the 911 that is even more expensive today.

Ideally most models or platforms need to see 100K units at a average price of $35K. This will bring the return on investment to where they will see something. Even then they would like to see more. They can make a boring CUV and sell 3 times as many at a much higher ATP.

Today it is not about just making money but making more money per unit. Development cost are so high you see companies like Ford and GM joining to make transmissions and even now GM and Honda to share EV technology. GM has invested in tech and development as they want to be the go to company that works with others and it will reduce their cost on their projects.

Just a few years back BMW came to GM and paid them to make them a Auto Tranny. GM did so and was give the rights to it 2 years later for Cadillac. It became a free tranny for GM at that point anrf they did well. We will see more of this as many companies just can not make it without a dance partner anymore.

The Corvette will get more expensive as time goes on but they will try to keep it under the others. I expect Cadillac will get some kind of car based on it with their own engine again. This time I hope they do it right and not just rebody car. You have to make it different or it helps no one.

It will be interesting where this all goes as cars are dying at an alarming rate. Right now the Mustang and Camaro will go global as GT coupes to survive as American sales are no longer enough. They both died in the past before with the end of the Camaro and the Mustang II was really not a real Mustang. It could happen again if sales continue to decline.

The Truth is Cheap RWD performance is dead. Even Cheap FWD performance sucks. I did love my FWD turbo but you just can't get the power to the ground with the FWD. AWD moves it to $40K.

All this while kids today show less interest in cars than ever.



I still disagree about the projected 2nd gen of the Solstice...It would have happened in my opinion... but it's an moot point ...sorta like debating what would have happened if the Titanic avoided the ice berg....lol.....yeah, for the most part-sports cars are not meant to be major revenue generations...but an little something like PZZZZZZZ in
the builders current line up........and once again, the miata had 20 years. and over those two decades...there were tweaks across the board....look at the first one offered..and look at the current one.......and of course, the price increases......and again, I ponder what might have happened to the Fiero for 1989, 1990, even 1991....but we will never know....but at least we have those five years..and if you look not only at this forum, but across the NET itself, there's a interest and support for it...

as for kids NOT having interest in cars, may be true in your neck of the world, but in my sector, young guys here are still car crazy...ranging from ancient Land cruisers, Troopers, 60's muscle cars, to current mustangs, and other similar vehicles.........

all in all...I've enjoyed reading the comments on this thread.....thanks to everyone who's taken the time..to offer their 2 cents...