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| The Getrag F23 Tutorial - By Emc209i (Page 22/23) |
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Monstertone
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JUL 19, 01:04 AM
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Transaxle is a 2010 Cobalt (ecotec) gears & rear case with a 2002 Cavalier bell housing. Ended up going with Roger Thelin's mounts. Had to drill & tap two holes mentioned earlier, Not difficult at all if you have the proper tools. ie There are cutting taps & dies, & cleanup taps & dies. (HF) The former cuts thru aluminum like butter.
Bolting up the trans to the engine is another story. I'm using a cut down Camaro flywheel from FieroRog & a Ram 54007 9.75 Ø clutch from the Fiero Store. (figured I could use all the surface area I could get) Everything seemed to be going well tightening up the trans to the block, until the last .060 or so. At which point everything binds up & am no longer able to turn the crankshaft, even with a 24" breaker bar! Not seeing any scratch marks inside the bell housing, or on the pressure plate. The disk is facing the right direction. Did I miss something along the way? Do I need a spacer between the engine & trans? Or does the input shaft or fly wheel need to be modified?
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Trinten
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JUL 19, 03:50 AM
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Removed my post because FieroGuru posted something that makes way more sense and is likely the cause of the issue. [This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 07-19-2020).]
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cam-a-lot
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JUL 19, 11:01 AM
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Please post pictures of your progress. This would be very helpul, showing the mounts, etc
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fieroguru
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JUL 19, 01:14 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Monstertone:
Transaxle is a 2010 Cobalt (ecotec) gears & rear case with a 2002 Cavalier bell housing. Ended up going with Roger Thelin's mounts. Had to drill & tap two holes mentioned earlier, Not difficult at all if you have the proper tools. ie There are cutting taps & dies, & cleanup taps & dies. (HF) The former cuts thru aluminum like butter.
Bolting up the trans to the engine is another story. I'm using a cut down Camaro flywheel from FieroRog & a Ram 54007 9.75 Ø clutch from the Fiero Store. (figured I could use all the surface area I could get) Everything seemed to be going well tightening up the trans to the block, until the last .060 or so. At which point everything binds up & am no longer able to turn the crankshaft, even with a 24" breaker bar! Not seeing any scratch marks inside the bell housing, or on the pressure plate. The disk is facing the right direction. Did I miss something along the way? Do I need a spacer between the engine & trans? Or does the input shaft or fly wheel need to be modified? |
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The F23 bellhousing is tighter in several areas than the Fiero 282 - so many of the custom or upgraded flywheels and clutches for the 282 end up interfere with a portion of the case around the differential. Here is a picture of the issue.
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Monstertone
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JUL 19, 02:57 PM
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I have no scratches like that. Could be I have not made enough turns to generate them. However, I would think it would not take much to at least make some visible marks in aluminum, once you know where to look.
Perhaps I should try it with the standard Fiero clutch first?
Edit: I had neglected to take into consideration the slight difference in distance between the input & output shafts of the M282 vs F23. I don't remember the exact numbers but, the F23 is somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 mm shorter. This would indeed account for the possibility of clearance issues, especially with the clutch I ordered.[This message has been edited by Monstertone (edited 07-20-2020).]
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Raydar
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JUL 19, 03:03 PM
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I keep on reading about this particular interference issue, along with the TOB spacer requirement.
I guess I have two questions...
1. Does the face of the Cavalier flywheel sit the same distance from the face of the block (and, by extension, the bellhousing flange) as the Fiero /282 flywheel does from the Fiero or 3800 block?
2. Does anyone build a "maximum effort" Cavalier (yeah, I know, mutually exclusive) clutch, that would support "our" application(s)?
Sorry if this is old ground. I've never seen those asked.
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fieroguru
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JUL 19, 03:44 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Raydar:
I keep on reading about this particular interference issue, along with the TOB spacer requirement.
I guess I have two questions...
1. Does the face of the Cavalier flywheel sit the same distance from the face of the block (and, by extension, the bellhousing flange) as the Fiero /282 flywheel does from the Fiero or 3800 block?
2. Does anyone build a "maximum effort" Cavalier (yeah, I know, mutually exclusive) clutch, that would support "our" application(s)?
Sorry if this is old ground. I've never seen those asked. |
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Just about all the FWD engines have the crankshaft basically flush with the bellhousing, but there can be 0.030 +/- between different engine families.
Part of the problem is the way people reference custom flywheels. They say how thick is, when the true critical dimension is protrusion from the bellhousing for the specific application (because like I said, flush crankshaft flanges can be +/- 0.030" from each other and oftentimes 0.030" is the different between fitting or interfering. Stock Fiero 2.8 has the face of the flywheel 0.830" from the bellhousing face.
The F23 was designed for small, low power motors and came with a less than 9 1/8" (stock Fiero 2.8 size) clutch. If you run the stock F23 application clutch and pressure place, 90% of all the issues with HTOB over extension and interference go away, but I have only seen a few go this path (with success), the rest mix and match parts from the Fiero and other applications and run into fitment issues.[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-19-2020).]
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Raydar
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JUL 19, 04:51 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by fieroguru:
...
The F23 was designed for small, low power motors and came with a less than 9 1/8" (stock Fiero 2.8 size) clutch. If you run the stock F23 application clutch and pressure place, 90% of all the issues with HTOB over extension and interference go away, but I have only seen a few go this path (with success), the rest mix and match parts from the Fiero and other applications and run into fitment issues.
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Perfect. Thanks for that.
I've seen a few clutches listed for the Cavalier, at 9 1/8", and (strangely) some at 8.5". 
With that said, the Fiero Ram clutch is described as anywhere between 9 3/8" and 9/5/8". (Whatever it is, it seems to hold the torque from my 4.9 just fine.)
That kind of gives me some hope that there is something heavy duty, but streetable, available for the Cavalier, that won't require the reinvention of the wheel.
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Monstertone
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JUL 31, 01:43 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Justinbart:
I had to grind down the input shaft for the 3800. Might not have to on the 2.8. I don't know. See my sig.
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None of the earlier pics on this thread are visible anymore.
Could you be more specific about grinding the input shaft? What diameter, how far back? And exactly how did you do it? Remove the shaft & turn it on a lathe, or what? The scant info I have been able to find is that #1 there is no pilot bushing, #2 the shaft does extend into the crankshaft on some applications, but when it does there is ample clearance so it's not really a pilot.
This is NOT a minor operation! If everyone is having to modify the input shaft, how come hardly anyone is talking about it?[This message has been edited by Monstertone (edited 07-31-2020).]
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pmbrunelle
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JUL 31, 02:08 PM
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The input shaft is already self-supported, so you just need to prevent contact between the input shaft and crankshaft.
As such, if you need to modify the input shaft, the requirements are pretty loose.
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