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| GM to MrMike: cease & desist (Page 4/11) |
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jjd2296
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NOV 05, 09:13 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by da.slyboy:
Since GM is not really going to purchase any Mr. Mikes seats.. Can you just remove the add logo option from your website and just email/call you personally to say you want to add the Fiero logo? GM probably just did an internet search and found the addition on your website. I don't think they can track down all orders that are designed/made as "custom" with the logo request. Otherwise flip the horse image and stretch the "Fiero words" by 1/8" to make it no longer the exact same logo.
Like Keith's taillight lenses, it always annoyed me that a company who hasn't provided any support for theses cars for 20 years plus should claim copyright infringement. |
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Trademarks almost always include any use of the word or logo in any combination with each other, and in some cases even separate from each other. Its also addresses the intent of the use, for example if you are making a logo that looks materially similar and its being use for the same purpose as the trademarked logo then your in trouble. That also means any variation of a materially similar logo. As for the words, you cant just stretch them out, you would have to used completely different font and size and you would not be able to combine it with any logo that remotely resembles the GM fiero logo. You would have to add a letter to Fiero, such as "Fierro" and use a different font and avoid using the logo shape and similar image in order to avoid any issues. All of the proposed options in this thread would still infringe on the trademark.
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jjd2296
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NOV 05, 09:19 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by reinhart:
Interesting situation here. Does GM still own the Pontiac and Fiero copyrights after the bankruptcy? Also how long are they good for? When were they last renewed?
There was an interesting case in CA where Del Taco bought out a mexican fast food chain and then converted all those stores to Del Tacos and closed everything down for that chain. The other chain was then just ignored by Del Taco. About 20 years later an entrepreneur realized the name was no longer copyrighted due to length of time having passed without it being renewed and claimed the name and brought back the fast food chain using the original menu and items. It is now entirely owned by this individual with no royalties or $ due to Del Taco. All of this was legal and the fast food chain is now operating a handful of stores with Del Taco being unable to do anything about it.
I would be quite curious if GM actually has the ability to control people remaking worn out products to keep the discontinued cars running. There could be a legal argument made that GM has neglected the right to continue to support the vehicle by providing regular wear and tear items that wear over time and has shirked that responsibility and these 3rd party companies are just filling the gap GM has left. It a 3rd party were directly competing with GM making a similar product then GM could argue for copyright infringement and loss of sales, but if they have no interest in providing replacement items such as worn out seats, then I think their case is diminished.
Remember any legal civil case has to show a economic loss. What are GM's economic losses from Mr Mike using their logos in seats? Is the name being tarnished? If GM has discontinued the entire division of Pontiac, is there any real chance they'll remake a "Pontiac Fiero" ever? Is GM losing out on selling a competing product such as GM's own sales of Fiero seats? Honeslty, I don't think GM could prove any economic loss. Of course they could still sue and try to make life hard for a little guy but that doesn't mean they would win anything if they did go to court. Of course these are just my opinions but perhaps someone with a legal degree could comment on these thoughts.
I do remember about 30 years ago there were 3rd parties making exact replacement aero bumpers, spoliers, etc. for Fieros and selling them for like 1/3rd of the price GM charged for replacements. GM seemed powerless to stop them. If they can't stop a direct copy of a GM designed body part then perhaps they're just blowing empty threats about replacing worn out emblems on seats as well. |
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Damages amounts in trademark disputes can often be difficult to quantify. How does one attach a specific dollar value to the loss of a trademark’s distinctiveness or depreciation of goodwill associated with a trademark?
In response to this difficulty, courts have awarded “nominal” damages where the plaintiff is unable to provide evidence of specific losses suffered. If there has been infringement, courts must use best efforts to ascertain appropriate damages, regardless of the difficulty in doing so, and are permitted to apply ordinary business knowledge and common sense. Further, although more typically associated with punitive damages, the need for deterrence has also been considered in compensatory damages awards in trademark disputes.
In practical application, GM only need to prove how many seats Mr. Mike produced and sold with Fiero logos on them. That is easily achieved via way of discovery process in civil litigation. GM then only needs to demonstrate what it receives via way of royalty for similar use of the Fiero logo. after that its simply a 1+2=damages calculation.
Mr. Mike, I suggest you just stop with the logos and only use recycled patches as provided by customers. I know that sucks!
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jscott1
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NOV 05, 10:33 AM
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Mr. Mike,
Does this also mean you can longer make the Indy Seat covers out of the original red fabric with the Fiero logo embossed into it?
Asking for a friend,
- Jonathan
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fieroguru
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NOV 05, 10:42 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by jjd2296:
In practical application, GM only need to prove how many seats Mr. Mike produced and sold with Fiero logos on them. That is easily achieved via way of discovery process in civil litigation. GM then only needs to demonstrate what it receives via way of royalty for similar use of the Fiero logo. after that its simply a 1+2=damages calculation.
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Agreed.
https://www.uspto.gov/page/...ademark-infringement
Like it or not, GM has an established process for other businesses to use use their trademarks on products. This really gives them the upper hand in all these types of cases.
Using a GM Trademark w/o going through this licensing process is going to be really difficult to defend since they have an established process to accomplish your desired goal (improving the quality/value of your product by the inclusion of a GM Trademark on it) . The reasons for not using this process: too expensive, too much of an hassle, GM doesn't deserve the $$, GM doesn't make a competing product, just don't want to, etc... are not strong positions to defend.
Even the process of attaching used seat emblems to new covers could be problematic. The product would still be leaving his business with a GM Trademarked logos on a non-licensed product - this is the fundamental issue. The best way to proceed would be to ship w/o any logo and allow the end user to attach their own logo. He could pre-stitch/punch the holes for the OEM logo to make it easier for the end user to attach it in the right spot.
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hyperv6
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NOV 05, 11:23 AM
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This is not just GM but most well established companies.
It used to not be an issue but today so many people have used and abused these trademarked names and images that companies have had to enforce the use as companies were losing control of where they appeared and the quality of the items they were put on.
Often they would put the name in so it appeared to look like a product from that company.
Ford went as far as threatening to not let magazines use Ford and Mustang for a while till things got worked out.
Companies are not making major profits here as most of the legal expense is eating up the money charged.
GM still owns the Fiero and Pontiac names and images. GM has owned the Fiero name since the late 60’s.
All of this is a total pain but it also just shows just how bad theft and miss appropriation has gone. Just look at the music industry.
Much of the trouble is China. They steal everything.
GM keeps most of their names pre and post bankruptcy registered and controlled. Active and non active models and divisions.
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jjd2296
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NOV 05, 11:52 AM
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If represented properly, the process of attaching the original emblems to new skins is permissible. It would need to be advertised as “seat skin repair service” . [This message has been edited by jjd2296 (edited 11-05-2021).]
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jjd2296
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NOV 05, 03:25 PM
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duplicate post [This message has been edited by jjd2296 (edited 11-05-2021).]
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MrMike
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NOV 05, 04:24 PM
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Does anyone know where this design came from?
I have customers wanting it.
MrMike
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Raydar
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NOV 05, 05:39 PM
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It is widely reported that it was drawn by PFF member F.I.E.R.O.
With that said, I'm not sure where he got it. It may have been discovered in an old filing cabinet at Pontiac, destined for a future release. Or not.
But the design, and the creation of the design, was widely posted here.
I'm quite sure that it has never been produced in an official capacity. I've never seen it attached to a car.
| quote | Originally posted by MrMike:
Does anyone know where this design came from?
I have customers wanting it.
MrMike
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MrMike
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NOV 05, 05:48 PM
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