GM to MrMike: cease & desist (Page 3/11)
infinitewill NOV 04, 12:14 PM

quote
Originally posted by MrMike:



I would like to see the community come up with (and agree upon) a design.



As the creator and copyright holder of the above custom logo that I did for myself and a few choice members I at one point would have objected to anyone using it. At this point the unmitigated greed of GM and their petty penny pinching way to protect ANY and all profit from a discontinued nameplate and abandoned brand is mind numbing. IF you want to use my logo on your seat design it will cost you a fee of $10 USD paid to Cliff to support this forum. Please be aware it is NOT public domain, there is NO fair use application that apply's but I will let it be used for the good of the community.

Best regards,

Dr. Will Hammond

[This message has been edited by infinitewill (edited 11-04-2021).]

MrMike NOV 04, 12:45 PM
Dear Dr. Will Hammond,

$10 has been paid to Cliff per your request.
With my many thanks. MrMike
infinitewill NOV 04, 01:11 PM

quote
Originally posted by MrMike:

Dear Dr. Will Hammond,

$10 has been paid to Cliff per your request.
With my many thanks. MrMike



MrMike,

Let me add an addendum if I may. Any buyer that wishes to use my logo must pay the $10 fee as well. You do such excellent work and are a gem for the Fiero community, I think it is only fair we support Cliff as well. Chris Dobbins seats came out fantastic and then I was going to replace my seat covers (which you had done for me with the GT logo) and I never got around to it. Thank you for the donation to Cliff as well 👍🏼
MrMike NOV 04, 01:31 PM
Sounds like a fair deal to me, I'm sure Cliff will appreciate the support. MrMike.
theogre NOV 04, 01:37 PM

quote
Originally posted by da.slyboy:
Since GM is not really going to purchase any Mr. Mikes seats..Can you just remove the add logo option from your website and just email/call you personally to say you want to add the Fiero logo? GM probably just did an internet search and found the addition on your website. I don't think they can track down all orders that are designed/made as "custom" with the logo request. Otherwise flip the horse image and stretch the "Fiero words" by 1/8" to make it no longer the exact same logo.

Like Keith's taillight lenses, it always annoyed me that a company who hasn't provided any support for theses cars for 20 years plus should claim copyright infringement.

You and others have No Clue... In Very Short Version:

1. Copyright for most things is now nearly 100 Year thanks to Bono Copyright Act AKA Micky Mouse Protection Act.
2. Copyright, Trademark and Patent Owners must Protect them or often can lose the Rights in the US and other countries. GM et al or Firms contracted to do this work not only search the web themselves but get "tips" by others including License holders to Legally make/sell GM things like TFS.
3. DMCA and C&D "letters" from GM and others have completely shut down many sites including some PFF members selling key chains and other trinkets. FieroNews got one from Haynes to take down Haynes Fiero book and he took down GM FSM and other doc's too because only time to get letter from GM. Is just Luck MrMike hasn't got one way before this.
4. Once you get a DMCA or C&D notice, GM Legal Dept has already put a big target on the company and if try to bypass by just removing parts of web site but still making GM logo available on phone etc then GM will Sue You and run you out of business. So if anyone calls, E-mails, etc and ask to have any GM Ford or other logos on them... The answer is We No Longer Offer This. More now you posted this in public.

Even time you pay TFS, your paying GM License Fees too. That Fee often Starts @ Tens to Hundreds of Thousands of $ Per Year.
MrMike likely Could get a License but would have to hike the prices of everything to pay GM. If used Ford etc then have to pay each of those too. That why others shut down because only made Fiero logo key chains mugs etc and doesn't make enough to pay GM license fees too.

You want a real problem?
Here's one... Many people write whatever, Copyright them, Get ripped off by Big Media and find cost to sue them is way high and most lawyers want paid a lot of $ to even to start.
Because Big Media has an Army of Lawyers to crush or settle a suit often paying pennies and everyone signing NDA to keep your mouth shut.
Also Big Media wants all "Abandon" Copyright items in LoC to move to Pubic Domain Before the time limit runs out to make easier to rip off stories and more authored by "poor people."

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave

MrMike NOV 04, 02:19 PM
Thanks for that theogre.
It was V8 Archie who told me "when you get your cease and desist, just desist, it's futile to fight them".
GM said none of their trademarked stuff, fine, I won't, done. MrMike.
theogre NOV 04, 04:42 PM

quote
Originally posted by MrMike:
Thanks for that theogre.
It was V8 Archie who told me "when you get your cease and desist, just desist, it's futile to fight them".
GM said none of their trademarked stuff, fine, I won't, done. MrMike.

No prob and agree w/ Archie here.

Good thing that GM and more mostly send DMCA and C&D first and stop there but many others still Sue like RIAA did w/ music sharing people years back.

Is likely an important fifth deleted above...
5. Minor, even major, Changes to real logos are often Not Enough to prevent getting sued under Copyright and/or TM.
Example: I worked for a company trying to riff on Jaws movie themes to make a product and had a time making "7 changes to meet © rules" and still close to same sound because © owners wanted an ass load of $ to license. Not sure if they made that product in the end.
"7 changes ..." quoted because think is Sim to a myth claiming needs 30% diff to avoid © owners suing you.(link to Gerben Perrott PLLC)

And while mostly is a Copyright issue this time because GM Abandon many old Trademarks for some uses but not other uses.
Many old Trademarks are still valid for uses like on clothes, toys, and more but "dead" for cars. TM data is at uspto.gov

But Apple is Famous for suing Everyone w/ Anything maybe looks like any current or past Apple Logos on them under © TM or Both.
Just 1 example: Apple Sues Canadian School over Apple-Shaped Logo https://news.softpedia.com/...ped-Logo-95109.shtml
reinhart NOV 05, 07:06 AM
Interesting situation here. Does GM still own the Pontiac and Fiero copyrights after the bankruptcy? Also how long are they good for? When were they last renewed?

There was an interesting case in CA where Del Taco bought out a mexican fast food chain and then converted all those stores to Del Tacos and closed everything down for that chain. The other chain was then just ignored by Del Taco. About 20 years later an entrepreneur realized the name was no longer copyrighted due to length of time having passed without it being renewed and claimed the name and brought back the fast food chain using the original menu and items. It is now entirely owned by this individual with no royalties or $ due to Del Taco. All of this was legal and the fast food chain is now operating a handful of stores with Del Taco being unable to do anything about it.

I would be quite curious if GM actually has the ability to control people remaking worn out products to keep the discontinued cars running. There could be a legal argument made that GM has neglected the right to continue to support the vehicle by providing regular wear and tear items that wear over time and has shirked that responsibility and these 3rd party companies are just filling the gap GM has left. It a 3rd party were directly competing with GM making a similar product then GM could argue for copyright infringement and loss of sales, but if they have no interest in providing replacement items such as worn out seats, then I think their case is diminished.

Remember any legal civil case has to show a economic loss. What are GM's economic losses from Mr Mike using their logos in seats? Is the name being tarnished? If GM has discontinued the entire division of Pontiac, is there any real chance they'll remake a "Pontiac Fiero" ever? Is GM losing out on selling a competing product such as GM's own sales of Fiero seats? Honeslty, I don't think GM could prove any economic loss. Of course they could still sue and try to make life hard for a little guy but that doesn't mean they would win anything if they did go to court. Of course these are just my opinions but perhaps someone with a legal degree could comment on these thoughts.

I do remember about 30 years ago there were 3rd parties making exact replacement aero bumpers, spoliers, etc. for Fieros and selling them for like 1/3rd of the price GM charged for replacements. GM seemed powerless to stop them. If they can't stop a direct copy of a GM designed body part then perhaps they're just blowing empty threats about replacing worn out emblems on seats as well.
reinhart NOV 05, 07:11 AM

quote
Originally posted by theogre:

And while mostly is a Copyright issue this time because GM Abandon many old Trademarks for some uses but not other uses.
Many old Trademarks are still valid for uses like on clothes, toys, and more but "dead" for cars. TM data is at uspto.gov

But Apple is Famous for suing Everyone w/ Anything maybe looks like any current or past Apple Logos on them under © TM or Both.
Just 1 example: Apple Sues Canadian School over Apple-Shaped Logo https://news.softpedia.com/...ped-Logo-95109.shtml



The music companies could argue that pirated music cost them sales. It was pretty easy to just argue that every downloaded song cost them whatever they would make in profit by selling the song to the customer. What's the argument for economic damages for remaking parts GM refuses and has no interest in making, hasn't made in over 30 years and never will make in the future. Personally I think they have no case.

[This message has been edited by reinhart (edited 11-05-2021).]

2.5 NOV 05, 08:17 AM
Hmm, how much can it resemble the Fiero emblem, maybe one that looks like it is made out of flames?