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LS4 / 4T65E-HD Swap - fieroguru (Page 2/7) |
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Fieroking
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AUG 06, 02:10 AM
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I have a West Coast Fiero reverse alternator mount that I removed from my first LS4 build. It made a lot of belt noise that I was unable to fix. If you are interested in it drop me a PM
Joe Sokol
------------------ 85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II 88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby) www.fieroking.com
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fieroguru
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AUG 06, 06:44 AM
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quote | Originally posted by Fieroking:
I have a West Coast Fiero reverse alternator mount that I removed from my first LS4 build. It made a lot of belt noise that I was unable to fix. If you are interested in it drop me a PM
Joe Sokol
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From what I have learned with my LS4, they are hyper sensitive to pulley alignment, and I think this is due to the short distances between all the pulleys/idlers.
I fought squealing issue on my setup for the first 6 months when it was driven in the rain until I figured out it was caused by excessive slop in the alternator mounting holes. I removed the belt, loosened the bolts and used a straight edge to verify the pulley was precisely vertical. The squeal has been gone ever since.
I haven't got to that part yet, but I plan to add some bushings to at least 2 alternator bolts to remove most of the slop in the alternator mounting holes.
As for the WCF bracket, I have seen pictures of it, but would prefer to do something slightly different. For me, figuring out these mounting issues is part of the fun in doing swaps!
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fieroguru
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AUG 06, 08:10 PM
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My trip the other day to Autozone to check out tensioners was productive. I found a tensioner with the mounting spacing within .084" of the two holes I wanted to use and the right general shape (and it came with a 6 rib pulley too!).

Now the holes in the block are M10 and the holes in the tensioner are smaller, so I went to the bolt bin and found some studs with a smaller thread and put them in the block.

Install the tensioner so you can see how close it is to fitting:


I little file work to the insides of both holes:

Now it bolts on:

Between the mounting studs and the block, there isn't much more room for it to pull into the block:

So I check where the pulley is in relationship with another one. Stock LS4 pulley from the head (focus on the point of the first rib to on the left - its just under 2 5/8"):

The new tensioner (right at 2 5/8" - this is very, very close. I could remove some material on the block to pull this in so it is perfect):

Then I pulled the tensioner to check range of travel. This is the only thing I am not super thrilled about, as the travel is limited and not the full range of motion for the tensioner, but it might still have sufficient travel to work.

Here is a nice visual showing the idler pulley not sticking out past the water pump (except its bolt head):

Then it was time for some cutting on the water pump to make room for the pulley relocation. I used a saws all for the 4 cuts: First cut from the topside:

Here you can see the piece has been removed the two cuts from the bottom that allowed it to separate:

4th cut to remove more material from the near vertical section:

Grab the angle grinder with a 36 grit flapper disk and smooth things so it doesn't look like this area was modified. Taking this extra step to clean things up really helps with the visual appeal of the swap and only takes time (not $$$ - unless you are paying someone to do it).




Then it was time to throw a belt on to show the belt path and check for clearance. It just barely clears... by raising the alternator pulley higher, this clearance will be increased to an acceptable level:


Then I decided to take some pictures of the available clearance in the car - its hard to tell anything by this pic:

I needed a reference tool so I could better visualize if the tensioner would fit. So I used this scale. The position of it relative to the water pump bolts and center of the pulley is critical:

It just barely fits!:


On to the alternator... using a piece of wood and some wire I was able to hang the alternator in the general area of where it needs to be and the red lines indicate a potential mounting method. What I like about this mounting method is the belt can be installed/removed w/o removing the alternator (power cable does need to come off):



With the alternator now higher than the original pulley, there is plenty of belt clearance to the body of the water pump:


To make sure the alternator is above the frame rail, I checked the car using the water pump bolts as reference points and then placed this yard stick at the elevation of the frame rail... lots of room!

Here is how far the mounting tabs are from the water pump pulley:

Here is the distance from the pulley to the frame rail. Since the alternator is a few inches higher, it doesn't mean anything, but thought it good to show it anyway:

This tensioner and alternator location are showing some signs of promise. Now I am waiting on the M10 x 1.5 x 170mm bolts (the ones I previously ordered were M12 by my mistake)...
I am still going to keep looking for a more compact tensioner, but for $35 and 2 minutes with the file, this current one is very basic/simple and quite promising.[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-06-2014).]
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fieroguru
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AUG 07, 06:56 PM
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Didn't do much this evening, but did figure out that if I drill out the tensioner hole to 10mm I can use a longer bolt and spacer to mount another idler there and increase the wrap on the tensioner. This will help increase the amount belt slack the tensioner can take up with its reduced travel.

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fieroguru
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AUG 08, 06:42 AM
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Actually, the more I think about it, there is no need to add the idler to increase the wrap of the tensioner, just run the belt like the stock LS4 routing (even easier and 1 less pulley).
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ericjon262
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AUG 08, 08:24 AM
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there's no way to mount the tensioner on the same side as the rest of the accessories?
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fieroguru
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AUG 08, 11:01 AM
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quote | Originally posted by ericjon262:
there's no way to mount the tensioner on the same side as the rest of the accessories? |
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Ideally, the spring loaded tensioner should be on the slack side of the belt, which is the section between the harmonic balancer and the alternator. There isn't much room at the rear head location w/o modifying the strut tower, and there are no other readily accessible bolt holes until the power steering pump mount (3 bolt holes). Plan b is to find a round base tensioner to attach off the power steering mount. I would really like to find a tensioner with 2 pulleys so the tensioner will have a good amount of wrap (for belt takeup), while keeping the wrap around the alternator maximized as well.
If I wanted to run a mechanical tensioner, there are several with a jack screw. I could probably place it at the location of the idler between the balancer and AC compressor and have the threaded rod run vertical with the adjusting nut on the bottom side. However, then I would still need to make a bracket of some kind to mount the idler to get the belt from the balancer around the pump. So it would require periodic belt tensioning adjustment and require more fabbed parts...
The main criticisms of the LS4 swap is its too complicated and too expensive for most to accomplish and with this swap I am trying to find a path that more people could follow. This may not be the most ideal path to some, but simple, cost effective, and functional is what 80+% of Fiero swappers are looking for and those are my key parameters.
While figuring out the belt drive, I am trying really hard to keep the required mods and cost of the needed parts to an absolute minimum. Right now the tensioner is $35 (and comes with the right pulley) and takes very minor work with a file to attach to existing holes. Cutting the pump housing by the fill area takes 10-15 minutes with a sawsall (or other cutting tool) and a grinder to clean it up. I could have done it with a cutoff disk and the grinder... but with the engine up that high the position I needed the grinder to be in wasn't easy (would have been quite simple had the engine been on the ground). The alternator will require a custom bracket, but the 3800 swaps have proven than most people are willing to pay for an alternator relocation bracket, or build one themselves...
I think as long as the accessory drive is simple to mod (no welding aluminum) and the other parts are relatively inexpensive and bolt on, then I will have accomplished my goal. My personal struggle to do all that while making it look clean and professional.[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-08-2014).]
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Jims88
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AUG 08, 09:43 PM
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Enjoying following your newest build thread Building a cantilevered alternator mount for my Ls4 was fun/challenging. Getting enough wrap on the alternator verses the water pump verses the alternator to firewall clearance and all those appendages on that alternator  Looking good, cant wait to see what you come up with!
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dobey
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AUG 08, 10:05 PM
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quote | Originally posted by fieroguru: Ideally, the spring loaded tensioner should be on the slack side of the belt, which is the section between the harmonic balancer and the alternator. There isn't much room at the rear head location w/o modifying the strut tower, and there are no other readily accessible bolt holes until the power steering pump mount (3 bolt holes). Plan b is to find a round base tensioner to attach off the power steering mount. I would really like to find a tensioner with 2 pulleys so the tensioner will have a good amount of wrap (for belt takeup), while keeping the wrap around the alternator maximized as well.
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I was looking at that picture of the belt setup earlier, and started wondering. Will an alternator fit in the power steering pump mount location? Or will it interfere with the intake? The alternator on my Avalanche for example, mounts in a similar location as to where the P/S pump is on the LS4, and in a similar way. If the distance center-to-center for the top and bottom bolt holes on the P/S pump bracket are the same as for the alternator mount on the Vortec engines, it might be possible to use one of the truck alternators on the LS4 in that location, assuming the pulley sticks out the right amount for the LS4 belt.
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Jims88
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AUG 08, 11:50 PM
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Installing a larger diameter pulley on the alternator (if Possible), could eliminate the top right idler and retain a good wrap on the alternator and water pump.
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