Preparing my Fiero for an engine swap (Page 11/23)
wftb DEC 11, 10:50 AM
36 years with a car that you bought from new is amazing. I thought the 20 years I have had my Fiero was a long time. You know you are getting old when the furniture you made in your early 20's is now considered antique.

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86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-11-2019).]

longjonsilver DEC 11, 04:44 PM

quote
Originally posted by wftb:

36 years with a car that you bought from new is amazing. I thought the 20 years I have had my Fiero was a long time. You know you are getting old when the furniture you made in your early 20's is now considered antique.



Yes, 20 years with a car is a long time, in this era of instant gratification and debt, and 36 years is insane i guess.
But i always ask myself "What other car would i rather have?". They are either not as fun or too expensive to buy or repair, or both. So why change? You have said that the Fiero is the best platform for a hotrod, and i agree. Why go to an old chassis design? i would like more power, and that is coming. i really would like an ecotec but i am having a hard time finding the deal that i need to get it done. There is a 3800SC nearby and it is cheap. Gonna check it out and see what we can do. i already have the tranny for it, a 4 speed with the 3.35 final drive gear - the so called economy transmission from 84, like having a 5 speed without the first gear. heh heh
jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

pmbrunelle DEC 12, 08:26 PM

quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
i really would like an ecotec but i am having a hard time finding the deal that i need to get it done. There is a 3800SC nearby and it is cheap.



I thought that Ecotecs were everywhere, being GM's goto econobox engine for quite a while...

In case you aren't aware of this jewel, I present:
http://www.car-part.com/

I wouldn't focus too much on the purchase price of the engine itself... I feel like the costs to get a donor engine running in a car would dwarf the engine's purchase price, so consider the whole picture.


quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
i already have the tranny for it, a 4 speed with the 3.35 final drive gear - the so called economy transmission from 84, like having a 5 speed without the first gear. heh heh



If you do want to use your MY8 Econo transmission with a strong engine, if it's not already done, you may want to stuff its innards into a V6 Fiero case:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum9/HTML/000014.html
longjonsilver DEC 13, 07:29 AM

quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


If you do want to use your MY8 Econo transmission with a strong engine, if it's not already done, you may want to stuff its innards into a V6 Fiero case:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum9/HTML/000014.html



Thanks pmbrunelle: that is a really informative write up on the tranny. i just might do what you suggest, because my game plan is to buy the car this winter, pull the engine and stuff ( or just pull the engine and stuff at the site there 2 hours away ) and then prep the engine (and tranny?), build the harness, and the exhaust, and the motor mount bracket, and the whatever brackets (dog bone, alternator relocation? and power steering delete) and whatever mods to the engine i do (port the exhaust manifold, the intake manifold and the supercharger). So that most of the work has been done before i drop the duke, so that Freya is out of commission as short a time as possible - so i can definitely get her done over a winter, whether next winter or even the one after that. Maybe even Fieroflyer can burn me a chip knowing the mods that i have done and the tranny that i am using so that she will start and run without the vats hassle.

And yes, i know about Car parts dot com, but i find that things are expensive and usually available only in Ontario or the states. i have found some things there for my S10 that i might pick up next summer in N Carolina. i have been looking on Kijiji for 2 years for an ecotec, and they come up in Alberta, never around here. So i thot why not a 3800SC which was for sale for $300 for everything, and i contacted the guy only to find out that he couldn't sell it so he gave it away. Another participant, the owner of Ann, an 85 2M4, suggested i buy her car that she had to swap in the 3800 SC for $200, because either she didn't have the money, time, ability or desire to complete the swap. So a Formula friend, the owner of Fiona, and i plan on going down and checking out ol Betsy and see if her 3800 is in good condition and we want to do the deal. She says that i can pull the engine there and the other stuff as well.

Questions: how long will it take to pull and engine and the attendant stuff that i will need? What all do i need to pull? Where is the computer on a Grand Prix GTP with Series 2, and what do i need to get that is not in the engine compartment?

thanks
jon

edit: reading the rest of the thread (comments) the daunting thing is the shimming. Where to get shims? i can't imagine the local auto parts having them! Perhaps i will look for a 4 speed V6 tranny.


------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

[This message has been edited by longjonsilver (edited 12-13-2019).]

pmbrunelle DEC 13, 11:31 PM

quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
Maybe even Fieroflyer can burn me a chip knowing the mods that i have done and the tranny that i am using so that she will start and run without the vats hassle.


My buddy who is currently doing a Fiero engine swap has been getting the runaround with Dan for his wiring harness, while the computer tuning with Ryan has been smooth sailing. So between those two folks, I know who I'd choose if I had computer modifications to do...


quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
Another participant, the owner of Ann, an 85 2M4, suggested i buy her car that she had to swap in the 3800 SC for $200, because either she didn't have the money, time, ability or desire to complete the swap. So a Formula friend, the owner of Fiona, and i plan on going down and checking out ol Betsy and see if her 3800 is in good condition and we want to do the deal. She says that i can pull the engine there and the other stuff as well.


Does every car you meet get a human name?


quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
Questions: how long will it take to pull and engine and the attendant stuff that i will need? What all do i need to pull? Where is the computer on a Grand Prix GTP with Series 2, and what do i need to get that is not in the engine compartment?


No idea, that's a question for a 3800 guy.


quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
edit: reading the rest of the thread (comments) the daunting thing is the shimming. Where to get shims? i can't imagine the local auto parts having them! Perhaps i will look for a 4 speed V6 tranny.



I took apart three Muncies to make one good one; from the three of them, I had the shims I needed for the polygamous love-child.

Will compiled a list of part numbers: http://www.realfierotech.co...topic.php?f=3&t=3770 (read the thread to the end)
Otherwise, you can have a shim ground thinner with a local machine shop that has a surface grinder.
If you need to improvise something thicker, then said machine shop may be able to make something from scratch, or you could have a bearing cup shaved down into a shim.
Some improvisation may be required.

PM-about-to-be-sent.
longjonsilver DEC 14, 06:48 AM

quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
My buddy who is currently doing a Fiero engine swap has been getting the runaround with Dan for his wiring harness, while the computer tuning with Ryan has been smooth sailing. So between those two folks, I know who I'd choose if I had computer modifications to do...



Fieroflyer is Ryan? i plan on doing my own harness. It seems daunting at first but i think that it can be figured out with some patience, and by NOT taking things too far apart when i pull the motor - ie. leaving the harness attached at as many points as i can.



quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:Does every car you meet get a human name?

.

Well, i don't name them the people do. My wife and i have a history of naming our cars. My wife's green Toyoter was Sally, then we had Madame Blueberry - a Ford Escort, then the Silver Bullet - a Mazda 5 and now she has Grace, a 2004 Corolla that we bot a year ago from a rich old woman in Westmount, the SAAQ had pulled her drivers license and the family didn't want the car. Ultimate grandma car - 53K kilometers, rust proofed, always garaged, one owner, serviced at the local gas station, looked new inside, a few bumps outside. Anyway, i named Freya because of the prominate F and R in Fiero - let's see a womens name with an F and an R in it, so Freya was her name. They always said that the Fiero was a girls car - i guess a guys car would have had a V8 or something, so i just went with it - my Fiero is female. Then when i moved here, i met Steve with his red Formula and we talked for over an hour at the gas station. He kind of confessed that he calls his Formula, Fiona. i then found out that the owner of the 3800 donor calls her Fiero, Ann, (see what you can learn on Facebook). A guy at church saw Freya and approached me and let me know that he is building a Fiero and calls her Lucy. Then i met a lady at the park that used to have a Pontiac and she called her Betsy, so when i saw the Grand Prix for sale, she looked like a Betsy and she is old, so ol Betsy. So lots of people here in NS name their cars, and i guess i sort of fit in.



quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
I took apart three Muncies to make one good one; from the three of them, I had the shims I needed for the polygamous love-child.

Will compiled a list of part numbers: http://www.realfierotech.co...topic.php?f=3&t=3770 (read the thread to the end)
Otherwise, you can have a shim ground thinner with a local machine shop that has a surface grinder.
If you need to improvise something thicker, then said machine shop may be able to make something from scratch, or you could have a bearing cup shaved down into a shim.
Some improvisation may be required.



Thanks, i am currently running a 4 speed muncie in my 84GT with the 4.11 final drive ratio - the performance transmission in the day. But i don't wanna tear it apart for shims, but i might have enuf from the other two. i put in a request for a 4 speed from a V6 (is that the M17?) here on Eastern Canada Fiero Owners on Facebook. Perhaps someone will have one, i hear he has his own Fiero wrecking yard. A guy came on a week ago from here in Lower Sackville and said he was looking for a Fiero but all he could find was rusted junk or super expensive garage Queens. Within 24 hours three people were offering him a deal(?). So i bet one will turn up.

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

olejoedad DEC 14, 08:03 AM
Fieroflyer is Dan.
I have no comment.

Darthfiero is Ryan.
He is the go-to guy for computer tuning and great service!
longjonsilver DEC 14, 12:45 PM
Thanks OleJoeDad and PMBrunelle, a guy to burn a chip and part numbers for Chrysler shims will make this job doable. i've got ads on Kijiji and Facebook for the M17 tranny.

Blessings

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

longjonsilver DEC 20, 06:28 AM
Found an M17 tranny for $100C with about 200K clicks on it. Gonna spring for it. Cuppla questions for y'all. i have been reading ALOT on the 3800 threads and i read about the ECM and the PCM. i think that the ECM is the "computer" no? Do i just replace the Fiero computer with the ECM of the 3800? What is the PCM? And where is it located on the Grand Prix? i pulled a cuppla C500s and C203 modules from Fieros but i have yet to find a 3800 swap thread that describes in detail how they are joined to the 3800 wiring harness. i get how the C500 is in the Fiero engine compartment, but how does one route wires to the C203 which is in the Fiero center console?

So many questions, so little time.

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

pmbrunelle DEC 20, 07:13 PM

quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
Found an M17 tranny for $100C with about 200K clicks on it. Gonna spring for it.


Be sure to disassemble and inspect the differential. Among the three Muncies I took apart, none of them had a differential in good health. Even the one that came from a low-mile Iron Duke car.

A chewed up cross pin:


Damaged planetary gear teeth:


Cracks (highlighted in red) on a planetary gear:



quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
i have been reading ALOT on the 3800 threads and i read about the ECM and the PCM. i think that the ECM is the "computer" no?


For some cars equipped with automatic transmissions, GM has used a separate Engine Control Module (ECM) and Transmission Control Module (TCM).
GM has also had an architecture where the entire powertrain (engine + auto trans) was controlled by a single brain; the Powertrain Control Module (PCM).


quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
Do i just replace the Fiero computer with the ECM of the 3800?


Since you'll be using a manual transmission, you should only need the 3800 ECM, or PCM, as applicable.

You'll remove the Fiero computer from Freya, since without a Fiero engine to run, said computer no longer has any purpose.


quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
i have yet to find a 3800 swap thread that describes in detail how they are joined to the 3800 wiring harness.


I don't think there exists a paint-by-numbers sort of guide to tell you how to merge the Fiero harness with a swap engine harness. This question is "complex".

An automotive wiring harness is a collection of simple circuits that are taped/bundled together in a neat manner. To solve this puzzle, you must study one wire (or circuit) at a time. Focusing on a single wire, you can figure out where each end should go (engine, sensor, chassis, whatever), and what path it should follow. Complex puzzles are solved by breaking them down into bite-sized chunks.


quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
i get how the C500 is in the Fiero engine compartment


Be aware that the C500 location is different between 84 Fieros like Freya and 85-88... so watch what you're reading.


quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
but how does one route wires to the C203 which is in the Fiero center console?


Here is the stock wiring harness from my 85 Fiero L'enfant de la bibite:


The red arrow is pointing at the firewall pass-through. It's more or less of a "grommet" to keep the wires from chafing in the firewall cutout. The pass-through is made of plastic, and it is filled with hot glue. To soften the hot glue enough to pull out or feed through a wire, I submerge the pass-through in a pot of boiling water.

By the way, I don't have WhatsApp. I read that's a smartphone thing, whereas I have a flip cell phone, and a landline.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 12-20-2019).]