Originally posted by Synthesis: ... You are speaking from the perspective of white privilege, and you have absolutely zero understanding of the trials and tribulations that people of color have faced. I speak from the perspective of white privilege as well, but I have personally seen the damage caused by the devaluation of black and brown people, have lost people I loved that happened to be black to police violence. I can not fully see things from the perspective of people of color, but I have lived in the shadow of their struggles in my life.
I do not condone the riots that happened with BLM, but to negate the entire movement by summarizing it as "they burned down their fellow citizens businesses", you are lumping all of them together in direct contradiction to the way you are separating yesterday's rioters from yesterday's protestors. It is hypocrisy, Jason. You are better than that.
I said I think that is likely what the Jan 6 protestors wont do.
We can all pretend we know eachother well enough here to make these assumptions. Stangers do it everyday, falsely. But I won't. We can follow the trails of bread crumbs the media leads us down, the spoon fed news, ending in everyone dividing from eachother, and classifying eachother based on gender, race, skin color, nationality, income, etc. Deeming people worthy of "cancelling". Its just as "racist" as what you are trying to fight against. You must not have watched the 2 or 3 videos I shared months ago with you, or read the many posts about these topics over the years here, or I would think you would not be asking these questions and making these assumptions. If you don't want my opinion, asking here now isnt making alot of sense.
Today, people on Pennock's Fiero Forum, the same people who earlier this year decried the Black Lives Matter movement as having no legitimate cause and are just a bunch of rioters/looters/hooligans, are justifying the actions of seditionists and traitors who attacked the halls of our democracy at the urging of the POTUS with the statement that "People are tired of being pushed down/around". I'd call them out on their hypocrisy, but it would fall on deaf ears...
I think it's also important to note that you, I and everyone else are lumped in with who we hang with. Just as you have condemned those that support Trump as racist, those in this most recent "protest" have been lumped in with rioters. The actual number of people who trespassed and destroyed was no where near a majority of the crowd. The one thing I can not overlook is the Portland "Protests" went on for a significant time. There was rioting, theft, violence and just plain stupid destruction during most of that. Those that were on lookers and cheering on the riot are just as guilty. This is also applicable to the recent Trump Support Protest but, the numbers in support of the riot appear to be very different.
So, in many ways, BLM is earning it's own reputation, just as the Trumpers are in your world.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-07-2021).]
What I'm curious about is whether or not you saw the news, reported by multiple sources, video on the streets, etc of the "violence" in Portland and where it originated from?
In most cases, things didn't get violent until the non-identified "troops" or "police" or whatever showed up. The violence was instigated by them in those cases, and there is a ton of video evidence and first-hand accounts to support it.
So, you are saying some mysterious outside force or entity forced the Potland prrotestors to turn into rioters, destroy property, physically battle with law enforcement, and generally turn (virtually overnight) into 'bad eggs'?
Good luck finding any rational human being that will buy in to that crap.
People do violence because they choose to be violent.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-07-2021).]
What I'm curious about is whether or not you saw the news, reported by multiple sources, video on the streets, etc of the "violence" in Portland and where it originated from?
In most cases, things didn't get violent until the non-identified "troops" or "police" or whatever showed up. The violence was instigated by them in those cases, and there is a ton of video evidence and first-hand accounts to support it.
I watched a good deal of video and coverage.
The destruction of other people's property went on long before the 'non-identified' whatevers arrived.
What I'm curious about is whether or not you saw the news, reported by multiple sources, video on the streets, etc of the "violence" in Portland and where it originated from?
In most cases, things didn't get violent until the non-identified "troops" or "police" or whatever showed up. The violence was instigated by them in those cases, and there is a ton of video evidence and first-hand accounts to support it.
In most cases?
As a law enforcement advocate, in most cases is honestly a load of crap. Don’t care whether it’s BLM or the Trumpers, the law should be enforced equally. If you take an honest and unbiased look, you know that is true.
That doesn’t make this a perfect world but equal enforcement would be a good start. Don’t care who you are, your political affiliation, your sex or color. The law applies equally to everyone and should be enforced that way..
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-07-2021).]
As a law enforcement advocate, in most cases is honestly a load of crap. Don’t care whether it’s BLM or the Trumpers, the law should be enforced equally. If you take an honest a d unbiased look, you know that is true.
That doesn’t make this a perfect world but equal enforcement would be a good start. Don’t care who you are, your political affiliation, your sex or color. The law applies equally to everyone and should be enforced that way..
Rams
I'm glad you see things that way. Don't you agree that it would have been nice if the law had been applied as equally to the people storming the capitol yesterday as it was to the BLM people in Lafayette Square when they were violently assaulted with tear gas so Trump could go hold a bible upside down for a photo op?
[This message has been edited by Synthesis (edited 01-07-2021).]
A distinction without a difference. You want to call mommy on someone calling you names? Then expect to get it in return.
I dunno. Let's ask Cliff...
Hey Cliff, if a person directly attacks a user on here by calling them a name like drama queen, isn't that a violation of the rules?
Similarly, if a statement that says "If you continue to support someone who incites violence and is the direct root cause of a terrorist act, then that in turn makes you a terrorist sympathizer" were made, does that count as a direct attack against a user?
If you continue to support someone who incites violence and is the direct root cause of a terrorist act etc etc
1. I've asked this elsewhere and have seen others ask but no one has ever provided the exact words that they say are the incitement or direct cause. You have them?
1. I've asked this elsewhere and have seen others ask but no one has ever provided the exact words that they say are the incitement or direct cause. You have them?
2. Correlation does not equal causation.
1: "If you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore", spoken by Trump at his rally yesterday morning. Repeated statements and intimations that his followers should take action. He also said: “We will never give up; we will never concede,” Trump said to thunderous applause. “We will stop the steal. We’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, and we’re going to the Capitol…We’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones…the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.” before encouraging his supporters to march on the Capitol. Less than two hours later, the **** hit the fan.
2. I don't see that. It's no different than people who said "Hitler did nothing wrong" after all the **** hit the fan there as well... No, I don't believe Trump and Hitler are the same. I'm simply using Hitler as an example in this because there ARE people out there who believe Hitler and his followers didn't do anything wrong.
I'm glad you see things that way. Don't you agree that it would have been nice if the law had been applied as equally to the people storming the capitol yesterday as it was to the BLM people in Lafayette Square when they were violently assaulted with tear gas so Trump could go hold a bible upside down for a photo op?
Not necessarily, I wasn't there, not able to access the threat. (I also don't always believe the mass media which has proven to be very biased.)
I have to assume that LEOs present determined the threat and used appropriate response to that threat. I doubt you'll agree based on all your other comments but, I believe that to be true. Do bad decisions and judgements get made? Damn sure they do but, everyone needs to remember that those LEOs who are putting themselves on the line to protect and serve also want to go home at the end of their shift. In the DC Protest, the Capitol Police were unprepared for what happened, they should have been. That is definitely a leadership issue, bad decision, they had intel advising them of different groups who were planning on attending. They should have been prepared. Just as with the BLM protesting, not all of the DC protestors were rioting.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-07-2021).]
I'm glad you see things that way. Don't you agree that it would have been nice if the law had been applied as equally to the people storming the capitol yesterday as it was to the BLM people in Lafayette Square when they were violently assaulted with tear gas so Trump could go hold a bible upside down for a photo op?
If you search around for some on the ground reporting instead of just listening to opinions you would find there was quite a bit of tear gas used as well as flash bangs, batons, and physical force, as well as a gunshot. There is video from numerous sources posted on the interwebz.
Originally posted by gtjoe: If you search around for some on the ground reporting instead of just listening to opinions you would find there was quite a bit of tear gas used as well as flash bangs, batons, and physical force, as well as a gunshot. There is video from numerous sources posted on the interwebz.
I am quite aware of the fact that tear gas was used, as well as someone died from a gunshot wound to the chest. The on the ground reporting, videos, etc show it was nowhere near the scale of force that was used against BLM protestors.
1: "If you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore", spoken by Trump at his rally yesterday morning. Repeated statements and intimations that his followers should take action. He also said: “We will never give up; we will never concede,” Trump said to thunderous applause. “We will stop the steal. We’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, and we’re going to the Capitol…We’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones…the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.” before encouraging his supporters to march on the Capitol. Less than two hours later, the **** hit the fan.
So, you don't actually have a source where he told anyone to go invade govt buildings? All you have is that he implored the right to continue to 'fight back like hell'? https://www.politico.com/st...on-trump-feud-648028
quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:2. I don't see that. It's no different than people who said "Hitler did nothing wrong" after all the **** hit the fan there as well... No, I don't believe Trump and Hitler are the same. I'm simply using Hitler as an example in this because there ARE people out there who believe Hitler and his followers didn't do anything wrong.
And yet you were just unable to NOT use the comparison.
A little less than four years ago, we were discussing another protest by a smaller group of Trump supporters. Sometimes it helps to review where we have been, in order to see where we have gone.
I am quite aware of the fact that tear gas was used, as well as someone died from a gunshot wound to the chest. The on the ground reporting, videos, etc show it was nowhere near the scale of force that was used against BLM protestors.
This comment got me to thinking.
Obviously, the Capitol Police were not prepared for what occurred. Why I can't say, except for some terrible planning and threat analysis. But, Synthesis wants to compare other Protests/Riots against the Police actions during the Trump Support Rally. As I recall, in every confrontation of 2020, Law Enforcement has been on the defensive attempting to maintain some symbolism of order and were still attacked for over doing/over reaching in their enforcement. As I said before, LEOs all want to go home at the end of their shifts, they also would like to return to their jobs/employment the next shift.
Based on the above quoted statement, it would seem satisfaction would only be achieved if more shots were fired, blood spilled, heads cracked and ambulances summoned. I would suggest that Synthesis go ride along with a LEO for a few weeks to actually see how tough their job is.
Edited: Thinking about this even more, I believe if one considers the history of the different groups involved, I don't know of any Trump rallies that turned into Riots prior to this. That can't be said of other 2020 events. That doesn't excuse the obvious poor planning of the Capitol Police leadership. There was intel telling of outside groups planning on attending according to information provided from the "Dark Web".
Never figured out exactly what the "Dark Web" is or how to get there but as I've stated previously, I'm pretty much a "Law and Order" advocate. Defunding the Police would never happen if I had the authority to make that call.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-08-2021).]
Perspective, it's all about perspective. My side sets fires, destroys property, that's OK, your side does it and it's not. Thanks for reminding us. I distinctly remember Rep. Maxine Waters getting folks all excited about protesting in the past.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-08-2021).]
The White woman, Ashley Babbit, was shot by yet another Black man holding a government policing position. White privilege means White people didn't go steal sneakers. She got no march and no protest. But Jacob Blake, who had a restraining order demanding he not go where he was found went after a knife while resisting arrest, prompting police to stop his violent behavior and many a store was looted in his honor. The cross race assault, murder rate against Whites is insanely high. 500,000 assaults, murders, etc., in one year against Whites. Whites committed only 23,000 on Blacks. The cross race sexual rape of Whites is incredible. There is almost no White rape crossing race.
White privilege means you followed the rules. You bought into the system. You pulled your weight. You have a work ethic and paid your taxes just like the people before you who built this nation. It means your grandparents were born dirt poor, many in an old shack on rented land, born at home in trade for some chickens to the doctor. White privilege means they grew up without shoes, walked to school TO GET AN EDUCATION TO LEARN TO SPEAK, WRITE AND ASSIMILATE so they can build a life instead of never advancing. White privilege means they WENT TO WORK as soon as they could and PAID TAXES FOR THE COUNTRY, PAID taxes. They joined OR WERE DRAFTED TO FIGHT WARS across the globe to put their country in a global position of relevance. They served in the military of their country to get food and clothing and THEY PROVIDED FOR THEIR OWN FAMILY. THEY RAISED THEIR OWN CHILDREN. With their labor they paid for the construction of this country. The founders of this country did the same thing and they were the same group of people. They offered other races the opportunity to through lottery come here legally and to build something for themselves. And those other races that came here did that. They do that still. Black Indians from India and Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, etc., etc..
Now White privilege means after working to build this into what it is they watch the hordes who destroy their own nations come here to flood ours to bilk it of weath. They storm the Southern US border and steal their( our) jobs and possessions that they (we) sacrificed to build up through generations. They, the invaders, paid no toll to improve this nation but take their (our Grandparents) White grand children's acceptance to colleges and job positions because of skin color and White privilege means White people have to pay for these people's food, housing, healthcare, children, utilities, etc., etc..
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 01-08-2021).]
The White woman, Ashley Babbit, was shot by yet another Black man holding a government policing position. White privilege means White people didn't go steal sneakers. She got no march and no protest. But Jacob Blake, who had a restraining order demanding he not go where he was found went after a knife while resisting arrest, prompting police to stop his violent behavior and many a store was looted in his honor. The cross race assault, murder rate against Whites is insanely high. 500,000 assaults, murders, etc., in one year against Whites. Whites committed only 23,000 on Blacks. The cross race sexual rape of Whites is incredible. There is almost no White rape crossing race.
White privilege means you followed the rules. You bought into the system. You pulled your weight. You have a work ethic and paid your taxes just like the people before you who built this nation. It means your grandparents were born dirt poor, many in an old shack on rented land, born at home in trade for some chickens to the doctor. White privilege means they grew up without shoes, walked to school TO GET AN EDUCATION TO LEARN TO SPEAK, WRITE AND ASSIMILATE so they can build a life instead of never advancing. White privilege means they WENT TO WORK as soon as they could and PAID TAXES FOR THE COUNTRY, PAID taxes. They joined OR WERE DRAFTED TO FIGHT WARS across the globe to put their country in a global position of relevance. They served in the military of their country to get food and clothing and THEY PROVIDED FOR THEIR OWN FAMILY. THEY RAISED THEIR OWN CHILDREN. With their labor they paid for the construction of this country. The founders of this country did the same thing and they were the same group of people. They offered other races the opportunity to through lottery come here legally and to build something for themselves. And those other races that came here did that. They do that still. Black Indians from India and Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, etc., etc..
Now White privilege means after working to build this into what it is they watch the hordes who destroy their own nations come here to flood ours to bilk it of weath. They storm the Southern US border and steal their( our) jobs and possessions that they (we) sacrificed to build up through generations. They, the invaders, paid no toll to improve this nation but take their (our Grandparents) White grand children's acceptance to colleges and job positions because of skin color and White privilege means White people have to pay for these people's food, housing, healthcare, children, utilities, etc., etc..
Are you arguing that this woman, who stormed the capitol in a violent riot, attempted to gain access to a secured area with guns pointed at her, is somehow the victim in this?
The CEO of Illinois-based software and data analytics firm Cogensia was arrested during Wednesday's DC Capitol Building "Open House" event.
Brad Rukstales of Inverness, IL, a suburb of Chicago, was arrested by Capitol Police after following others who had breached the Capitol Building's entrances and going inside for what could be described as a "self-guided tour." Although the news reports are sketchy--I'm guessing that he was released almost immediately upon his own recognizance--I have the impression that curiosity about what was going on inside the Capitol Building was as much of a factor in his decision to go inside, as any tangible impact he may have imagined for himself upon the elections-related deliberations of the 116th (117th? 116.5th?) U.S. Congress.
Rukstales, who is described as having been a generous but not "mega-sized" campaign contributor to Trump and the general Republican cause, is the CEO of Cogensia.
A Twitter message from Cogensia's corporate account says that Rukstales current status with the firm is "leave of absence."
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 01-08-2021).]
Originally posted by RandomTask: Are you arguing that this woman, who stormed the capitol in a violent riot, attempted to gain access to a secured area with guns pointed at her, is somehow the victim in this?
I'm ashamed that with all the people that are here, not one had the decency to loot a Foot Locker to honor her murder.
Well I suppose it will all be worth it then, since so many think a weekly paycheck, a gallon of paint, a cold beer or a packet of squash seed is worth several thousand Covid deaths/day, then I guess I can begrudgingly get on board with not one but 2 walls built & paid off for only 1 human life each..
Obviously, the Capitol Police were not prepared for what occurred. Why I can't say, except for some terrible planning and threat analysis. But, Synthesis wants to compare other Protests/Riots against the Police actions during the Trump Support Rally. As I recall, in every confrontation of 2020, Law Enforcement has been on the defensive attempting to maintain some symbolism of order and were still attacked for over doing/over reaching in their enforcement. As I said before, LEOs all want to go home at the end of their shifts, they also would like to return to their jobs/employment the next shift.
Based on the above quoted statement, it would seem satisfaction would only be achieved if more shots were fired, blood spilled, heads cracked and ambulances summoned. I would suggest that Synthesis go ride along with a LEO for a few weeks to actually see how tough their job is.
Edited: Thinking about this even more, I believe if one considers the history of the different groups involved, I don't know of any Trump rallies that turned into Riots prior to this. That can't be said of other 2020 events. That doesn't excuse the obvious poor planning of the Capitol Police leadership. There was intel telling of outside groups planning on attending according to information provided from the "Dark Web".
Never figured out exactly what the "Dark Web" is or how to get there but as I've stated previously, I'm pretty much a "Law and Order" advocate. Defunding the Police would never happen if I had the authority to make that call.
Rams
The problem with "law" is that that it is made by a self-serving ruling class for their own benifit, and because they want power and control (and usually money). THATS the entire reason 1776 happened (people were sick and tired of them), THATS the reason 1812 happened and the reason every war in history happened.
THATS the reason constitutions right back to the Magna Carta were invented. NOT as an outline on how to run a country (region, state, province, whatever) but as a means for "We the People" to restrain and protect ourselves from other humans seeking that power.
The "The Law" and "The Government" and "Order" decides to go all Logan's Run and execute everyone over 50 for the greater good of the economy and country (or whatever other excuse the elites dream up), are you going to happily obey because its "the law" and jump into the grinder ? Or are you going to say "**** you, **** your law. I am a free man" and revolt.
I know what I'm going to do...and am doing with this bullshit police state crap.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 01-08-2021).]
The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I've seen it a hundred times.
