listed as politics because...... The Gov of California "the man occupying the mansion" says that the fires are a result of gcc? But more arrests are being made on the subject......and guess what? The cause is looking more like blm "burn it down, burn it down burn it down" than mother earth being angry. Nothing to see here people, just mostly peaceful joe biden supporters raising political billboards to advertise the real agenda. Which is "if you want us to stop this s**t, vote Trump out". It is nothing less than violent blackmail.
Now just for a second, ask yourself " if this blackmail works, how long will it take before they use the tactics again to affect more change?".
We have never had so many fires that are so destructive in the history of the west; The last 5 years have been absolutely holocaustic...Most of the fires start during high-wind events...In CA we never have Hurricanes and rarely have any tornadoes...But lately we have had extreme wind reaching above 70 mph. When a fire starts with that kind of wind there is no way of stopping it.
Back east you have rain during the summer, but CA rarely has rain from May to Oct...Once a fire starts you can only fight it or get out of the way.
Global Climate change; We have changed many environments locally on Earth over the last 100,000 years...The Native Americans deforested a large area in the west and then suffered thru a drought brought on by the deforestation. The Farmers in the mid-west stripped the land down and did not follow good soil management practices..Result, the Dust bowl.
"So,hey in the midwest and back east we have been suffering thru numerous blizzards every winter- See, Proof that there isn't any global warming!" Climate change states that the Earth's weather patterns will change, not just go up by "A half a degree" The atmosphere is a gigantic Heat Engine...Pumping more heat into it will cause it to spin out of control, resulting in More (And WORSE) hurricanes, Tornadoes, but also Blizzards, floods, droughts, etc...The weather will become more unpredictable. A large percentage of farmers already are suffering thru this as they loose crop after crop.
I have planned for 30 years to move up to a small town in N.Cal and build a small house I designed after I retired; Can't do it now because A) The Heat waves in Weaverville used to be 90-105, now are 100-115, B) The Lake (Trinity) is so low half the time that you can NOT launch your boat (Preceding 5 decades only a few years of drought) and C) Used to be, "Live outside of town, avoid noisy neighbors but worry about forest fires- or live in town and be protected from fires".....In 2018, the Carr fire wiped out a subdivision in Redding, which is a CITY! Weaverville will be burned to the ground in the next decade.
Throughout history, California has experienced many droughts, such as 1841, 1864, 1924, 1928–1935, 1947–1950, 1959–1960, 1976–1977, 1986–1992, 2006–2010, and 2011–2019.
At some point in the next 30 years, global temperatures are expected to rise 1.5°C above their pre-industrial levels, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. If we doubled the average fuel efficiency of all the cars on the planet, decreased the amount of global automotive travel by one half, increased solar-energy usage 100-fold, and increased wind-power capacity by ten times, we would go half of the way toward averting that temperature increase, assuming all the projections are correct and nothing else in the world changes in the interim.
A tall task, but that is how California governor Gavin Newsom plans to combat the wildfires consuming his state. “This is a climate damn emergency. This is real and it’s happening,” said Newsom during a press conference.
We wish the governor luck in reducing annual worldwide carbon emissions by the 8 billion tons necessary to stabilize temperatures while maintaining a vibrant economy. In the meantime, how about a plan B?
Fire plays a natural role in regulating the life cycles of trees and vegetation. In the pre-industrial era, more than 4 million acres burned in California annually. “Skies were likely smoky much of the summer and fall in California during the prehistoric period,” according to environmental scientists at the University of California, Berkeley.
Fortunately, we now have the knowledge and technology to diminish the frequency and extent of wildfires. Prescribed burns and proactive clearing of dead vegetation are known to reduce the speed and intensity of fires by diminishing the stock of combustible material, but federal and state agencies have long put a monomaniacal emphasis on suppression, rather than prevention, of fires.
After a series of devastating fires across the American West, in 1911 Congress passed the Weeks Act, which increased federal funding for firefighting efforts. The U.S. Forest Service subsequently required that all fires be suppressed before reaching ten acres and committed sufficient resources to put out any fire within the day.
In California, the upshot was a reduction in annual burning by 95 percent, and an attendant increase in the state’s vulnerability to fires. Dead trees and overcrowded forests became literal tinderboxes. Add to the decades of mismanagement a recent spike in tree mortality, due primarily to drought, and you get frequent, desolating fires.
The solution is simple in principle if not in practice, but a web of interests has held back progress in the Golden State. As a recent ProPublica investigation points out, “burn bosses in California can more easily be held liable than their peers in some other states if the wind comes up and their burn goes awry,” but they face no consequences for allowing overgrowth. Federal legislation requiring environmental reviews for the simplest of forest-management projects makes it doubly difficult. Meanwhile, homeowners strenuously oppose the inconveniences that come with controlled burns in their neighborhoods.
Better forest management would go a long way toward making California safer, but given Newsom’s response, we won’t hold our breath. Instead, we should make room for businesses and households to solve the problem on their own by incentivizing private burning and clearing.
If not, households may take a different approach — leaving the state altogether. The cost of wildfire insurance has already caused a drop-off in home sales in California, a trend exacerbated by high taxes and poor government services. California lost a net total of 1 million residents between 2007 and 2016, and a UC Berkeley poll found that more than half of the state’s voters have considered leaving for political reasons. We suspect a reduction in carbon emissions won’t stem the flow.
So you guys are saying we need to hack down all of the forests......Why don't you go eliminate the forests all over the world? That would increase CO2....Which you guys love so much...But wait, since you can't see CO2, you don't believe in CO2, right?
The anti-science guys "KNow" that the answer always "lies" in whatever the Oil industry tells them....
Do you all go to anti-science meetings in cars? And text each other about anti-science on your Cell-phones? You need to ELIMINATE all Science from your lives....Only live by the Bible (But Trump wants the bible rewritten with him as the messiah)
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in a tweet, put out this advice to help people protect themselves from the dangers of smoky wildfires, such as the kind sweeping through California and Oregon and other points West: “Wearing cloth masks in public can help slow the spread of #COVID19, but cloth masks won’t protect you from small particles in #wildfire smoke. Limit your time outside when it’s smoky.” And all the Twitter followers go: LOL. Literally. “Lol. What?!!” wrote one. “That’s insane! It [is] literally the opposite. The particles from the fire are tremendously larger than the China virus particles which can go through the mask material weave like a mosquito through a chain ink fence. What the heck [h]ave you guys been drinking up there?” That was just the beginning. “C’mon @cdcgov,” another tweeted. “[T]he only ppl buying that are those voting for a guy with advanced dementia. CV virions are 0.125 microns while most smoke particles can be seen with the naked eye. Pls stop lying to us. Masks don’t work for CV.” Another, replying to @CDCgov: “If this makes sense, public education has failed you!” Another: “Aren’t the particles of c19 even smaller than smoke?” Another: “The only consistency in the CDC communications, is the inconsistency.” Another, drawing a parallel to a satire news site: “Are you guys competing with the @TheBabylonBee?” Another: “I. Can’t Even.” Another: “Obviously CDC stands for ‘China Disease Center.’ “ Another. “No.” Another: “Something very hokey here. If masks are good enough for the virus, then they are good enough for P-10 particulates.” And yet another, touching at the deeper root of the matter: “I’m an American and I feel so betrayed by the CDC. I am sorry that none of you horrible people will ever face any real consequences for the damage you’ve done to your own credibility.”
Wearing cloth masks in public can help slow the spread of #COVID19, but cloth masks won’t protect you from small particles in #wildfire smoke. Limit your time outside when it’s smoky.
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Wearing cloth masks in public can help slow [not completely stop] the spread of #COVID19
Sounds good to me. "Fauci says..."
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Limit your time outside when it’s smoky.
I agree that this is sage advice, because there are limitations to what simple disposable or cloth face masks can achieve. There could be leakage around the boundaries of the mask, especially for the disposable kind that's made of a paper-like fabric. And what about a person's eyes? "Smoke gets in your eyes..." So the CDC is making sense with this last sentence.
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cloth masks won’t protect you from small particles in wildfire smoke
I think that a word or two--a small qualifier--was simply omitted by the CDC. It should read
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cloth masks won’t protect you from small particles in wildfire smoke all day long
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 09-15-2020).]
Originally posted by cvxjet: So you guys are saying we need to hack down all of the forests......Why don't you go eliminate the forests all over the world?
No, just the un-mannaged ones in your anti forrestation maintenance State.
In lieu of of repeating the truth over and over, ad infinitum, I will just link to the last time I said it less than a month ago. Nothing has changed: //www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/125380.html#p3
So let me get this straight; In all you RED states you go out and sweep up all the stuff on the forest floor every year..."Right"? SHow me proof of that.
Why have we NEVER had fires like this before? All because the Hyper-liberal, Leftist-commie CA govt allows the duff to build up on the forest floor..? Nothing to do with 70+ mph winds that we have NEVER had up until the last 5 years....
If Trump tells you to jump off a cliff will you do it? ("Yes- Gladly!!!!!")
Forest management that selectively removes trees to reduce fire risk, among other objectives (a practice referred to as “fuel treatments”), can maintain uneven-aged forest structure and create small openings in the forest. Under some conditions, this practice can help prevent large wildfires from spreading. Photo shows the effectiveness of fuel treatments in Arizona’s 2002 Rodeo-Chediski fire, which burned more than 400 square miles – at the time the worst fire in state history. Unburned area (left) had been managed with a treatment that removed commercial timber, thinned non-commercial-sized trees, and followed with prescribed fire in 1999. The right side of the photo shows burned area on the untreated slope below Limestone Ridge. (Photo credit: Jim Youtz, U.S. Forest Service).
This is the fire that was the subject of the song in my previous link.
So let me get this straight; In all you RED states you go out and sweep up all the stuff on the forest floor every year..."Right"? SHow me proof of that.
Why have we NEVER had fires like this before? All because the Hyper-liberal, Leftist-commie CA govt allows the duff to build up on the forest floor..? Nothing to do with 70+ mph winds that we have NEVER had up until the last 5 years....
If Trump tells you to jump off a cliff will you do it? ("Yes- Gladly!!!!!")
It would appear to me that Forrest Management has to be improved. It also appears that there are one heck of a lot of arsonist out there. Is someone trying to prove something?
So let me get this straight; In all you RED states you go out and sweep up all the stuff on the forest floor every year..."Right"? SHow me proof of that.
Why have we NEVER had fires like this before? All because the Hyper-liberal, Leftist-commie CA govt allows the duff to build up on the forest floor..? Nothing to do with 70+ mph winds that we have NEVER had up until the last 5 years....
If Trump tells you to jump off a cliff will you do it? ("Yes- Gladly!!!!!")
You don't happen to wear a vagina (aka pussy) hat do you?
So let me get this straight; In all you RED states you go out and sweep up all the stuff on the forest floor every year..."Right"? SHow me proof of that.
Why have we NEVER had fires like this before? All because the Hyper-liberal, Leftist-commie CA govt allows the duff to build up on the forest floor..? Nothing to do with 70+ mph winds that we have NEVER had up until the last 5 years....
If Trump tells you to jump off a cliff will you do it? ("Yes- Gladly!!!!!")
Never?
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The governor is right that climate change is real, man-made and something we need to deal with smartly. But the claim that the fires are caused by climate change is grossly misleading. Translated into policy, it would steer the state to the worst way to help future Californians.
To understand why, it helps to know that California wildfires used to be much bigger. This past decade, California has seen an average burnt area of 775,000 acres. Before 1800, however, California typically saw between 4.4 and 11.9 million acres burn every year.
In other words, up to 12 percent of the entire area of the state — had its modern boundaries existed in the 18th century — burned every year. Old newspapers across the country were filled with descriptions of terrible fires. Back then, “skies were likely smoky much of the summer and fall in California,” as one academic paper noted. Elsewhere in the country in 1781, “the smoke was so dense that many persons thought the day of judgment had come,” The New York Times reported a century later.
Sometimes, weather events join together and cause massive fires. Events like low humidity, drought and wind. It doesn't take much wind to drive a wildfire.......they make their own wind soon enough anyway. My state is not immune to wildfires, but we do try to keep the brush burned back. I live in the middle of Sam Houston National Forest and Tx Forest Service, Nat Forest Service, and Texas A&M Agri-Life Extension Service routinely carry out prescribed burns all around my county as well as other counties. Weather comes in cycles, and the cycles are repeated over and over century to century in about 27 year cycles caused by the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO). My farm is the cleared space...almost all the rest is National Forest: PDO
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The PDO index has been reconstructed using tree rings and other hydrologically sensitive proxies from west North America and Asia.
MacDonald and Case[24] reconstructed the PDO back to 993 using tree rings from California and Alberta. The index shows a 50–70 year periodicity but is a strong mode of variability only after 1800, a persistent negative phase occurring during medieval times (993–1300) which is consistent with La Niña conditions reconstructed in the tropical Pacific and multi-century droughts in the South-West United States.
Several regime shifts are apparent both in the reconstructions and instrumental data, during the 20th century regime shifts associated with concurrent changes in SST, SLP, land precipitation and ocean cloud cover occurred in 1924/1925, 1945/1946, and 1976/1977
PDO is the leading cause of cyclic caused wildfires in the USA but can also affect moisture content in the atmosphere and ground level worldwide..2011, saw 31,453 wildfires and 4 million acres burn, mostly out in scrub rangeland.
For Texas....
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At the root of this evolving situation is a change in the climate cycle that increases the occurrence of drought. In 2011, Texas experienced the worst one-year drought in recorded state history, which dates back to 1895. The result was devastating wildfires and massive destruction. But the drought of 2011 was not an isolated event. In Texas, droughts have been occurring with increasing severity since 1996. One-year droughts were recorded in 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001. Each year, the occurrence of large and complex wildfires mimicked the scope and intensity of the droughts. In 2005, there was a rise in both scope and duration. Droughts lasted multiple years — 2005-2006 and 2008-2009 — and impacted the entire state. The threat of large and complex wildfires extended throughout the droughts, challenging the state’s capacity and capability to respond effectively. Conditions only got worse in 2011, a record-setting year. As of October 2012, there are parts of South and Northwest Texas that still have not recovered from the 2011 drought. According to the Texas State Climatologist’s Office, the state is in a period where droughts will be common, at least for the near future. “Texas is in a period of enhanced drought susceptibility due to global ocean temperature patterns and has been since at least the year 2000,” according to the state climatologist’s report, The 2011 Texas Drought. “The good news is that these global patterns tend to reverse themselves over time ... Looking into the distant future, the safest bet is that global temperatures will continue to increase, causing Texas droughts to be warmer and more strongly affected by evaporation.” The prospect, then, is for additional droughts, each with a severity or intensity similar to those of recent years. If this prediction is realized, it could, in turn, lead to extended wildfire seasons with the potential for large and complex wildfires. How long will this trend continue? One of the global ocean temperature patterns referred to above by the state climatologist is the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO). The PDO is a multi-year pattern that changes every 25 to 30 years. When Texas is in a “cool phase” — as it is now — the state is more prone to drought. The last cool phase was during the 1950s and 1960s, a time period that also saw severe droughts. The drought of 2011 did not eclipse the drought of 1954-1956, which remains the most severe drought on record for the state due to its duration. Based on readings from the Joint Institute for the Study of the Atmosphere and Ocean at the University of Washington, the PDO has been in its current phase for about 12 years, with the transition starting about 15 years ago. It is uncertain how long this cycle will last. However, when compared to the duration of previous cycles, another 15 years or so is possible.
Originally posted by cvxjet: So let me get this straight; In all you RED states you go out and sweep up all the stuff on the forest floor every year..."Right"? SHow me proof of that.
Why are we being denied our forest fires, .
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet: Why have we NEVER had fires like this before? All because the Hyper-liberal, Leftist-commie CA govt allows the duff to build up on the forest floor..? Nothing to do with 70+ mph winds that we have NEVER had up until the last 5 years....
"Like this before" ? Every single frikken year, . Yes, your Hyper-liberal, Leftist-commie CA govt allows the duff to build up on the forest floor. How else is your Hyper-liberal, Leftist-commie CA govt going to pay for healthcare for illegal immigrants even though your Hyper-liberal, Leftist-commie CA govt charges on of the highest tax burdens on it's citizens.
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet: If Trump tells you to jump off a cliff will you do it? ("Yes- Gladly!!!!!")
C'mon coward, come out of the closet. We have already seen your false lies that you are a conservative. Where is your liberal pride ?
So you guys are saying we need to hack down all of the forests......Why don't you go eliminate the forests all over the world? That would increase CO2....Which you guys love so much...But wait, since you can't see CO2, you don't believe in CO2, right?
The anti-science guys "KNow" that the answer always "lies" in whatever the Oil industry tells them....
Do you all go to anti-science meetings in cars? And text each other about anti-science on your Cell-phones? You need to ELIMINATE all Science from your lives....Only live by the Bible (But Trump wants the bible rewritten with him as the messiah)
Burn, Witch, BURN!!! ("Right"?)
Anti-science?
You have no information as to my background, nor that of most others that contribute to this Forum, other than what we have posted.
And based on the posts that many others here have shared, it appears many of them have extensive backgrounds in science, and deductive reasoning.
So let me get this straight; In all you RED states you go out and sweep up all the stuff on the forest floor every year..."Right"? SHow me proof of that.
I would be interested in your response to the proof that I posted.
Originally posted by Lambo nut: You don't happen to wear a vagina (aka pussy) hat do you?
I Enjoy wearing them and yet I don't judge gay boys like you...Go play with your boyfriend who you hero-whoreship......
You just do what the Oil industry tells you and tell your grandchildren you don't give an "F" about their future....Why do you like to crap all over the world that God gave us? Next you'll be crapping in your church......
Willie.....SHould we eliminate all plant life? CA has millions of square mile of forest- Why don't you come here and start cleaning the forest- after you have done 1000 square miles I will start helping you.
Question; Why have we NEVER had so many and such bad fires in the history of the west?
[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 09-16-2020).]
Of course not, that would just be ridiculous. Plant life provides us with food, shelter and clean air.
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CA has millions of square mile of forest- Why don't you come here and start cleaning the forest- after you have done 1000 square miles I will start helping you.
I already spent 18 years working for Weyerhaeuser Co, a pioneer in forest management and stewardship. Now it is your turn to do your part. Change the laws in your state. Elect representatives who care more about the environment than votes.
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Question; Why have we NEVER had so many and such bad fires in the history of the west?
Because environmental buffoonery has prevented companies such as Weyerhaeuser, Georgia Pacific and Boise Cascade from effectively managing our forests.
The image I posted above is undeniable proof that thinning the forest can slow the spread of, and mitigate the damage from wildfires. Trump is right, again.
Lumber companies can thin the forests, protecting the environment and making a profit at the same time. It is a win/win. Environmental Capitalism, how about that?
Originally posted by williegoat: The image I posted above is undeniable proof that thinning the forest can slow the spread of, and mitigate the damage from wildfires. Trump is right, again. Lumber companies can thin the forests, protecting the environment and making a profit at the same time. It is a win/win. Environmental Capitalism, how about that.
The other report that I posted is a long one, but this one right here is a "shorty."
It doesn't say that there shouldn't be more aggressive and widespread wildfire mitigation practices, including forest thinning (possibly for lumber) and controlled burns.
It says "But..."
?
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 09-16-2020).]
The other report that I posted is a long one, but this one right here is a "shorty."
It doesn't say that there shouldn't be more aggressive and widespread wildfire mitigation practices, including forest thinning (possibly for lumber) and controlled burns.
It says "But..."
?
Your article starts by blaming the feds for not doing enough, then goes on to say that Governor Newsom has now agreed to allow the feds to double their mitigation effort. Those two ideas contradict each other.
What it means is that California and the Obama administration did not do enough to manage the forest, but Trump has now convinced California to accept responsibility and undertake an enlightened approach to environmental stewardship.
https://www.sacbee.com/news...rticle230481684.html More information for consumption at link above, but the following line does help explain the entrenched problems with California/Oregon/Washington state wildfire risk mitigation.
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In California, the debate over prescribed burns is complicated by a deadly history with wildfires that have grown quickly out of control, the state’s stringent environmental regulations, fear of liability lawsuits and infringement on property rights, and the huge swaths of federal forestland with their own management rules and oversight.
People keep putting lots of emphasis on wind and drought, but the big driver of problems with prescribed burns is humidity. I've talked to lots of Forest Service people over the years and did consult with them before burning big brushpiles on my own property and they all say the same thing. Pay far more attention to how low the humidity is before lighting the match. Forest Service has done lots of prescribed burns during drought and even high winds, but the humidity was always high.
Watch a wood fire at night, especially one that has limbs with leaves still on them and if the humidity is low, it's downright scary just how many glowing embers go up (and equally scary how high they go) but on a night with the same wind condition but higher humidity, those glowing embers extinquish themselves very close to the ground just from the moisture laden air. I'm not a novice at doing this in dry times and in close proximity to native forests.
]
How many did I burn? More than what is pictured here, all piled up and waiting for the right humidity conditions.
(the black square is where my home and yard are now..the green lineon the extreme right of the picture is Sam Houston national Forest..85' from my front door and it marks my West property line.)
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Willie.....SHould we eliminate all plant life? CA has millions of square mile of forest- Why don't you come here and start cleaning the forest- after you have done 1000 square miles I will start helping you.
You're in my wheelhouse now. Pay me and I'll hop on the plane but be careful what you ask/wish for. I tend not to discriminate from one tree to the next.
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Question; Why have we NEVER had so many and such bad fires in the history of the west?
There is more than a little historical evidence to prove that the word "never' is non-applicable.
Just because it has not happened in recent memory or within a person's lifetime is no indication at all that it is unprecedented.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 09-16-2020).]
Kind of figured. Now I can only guess you are in about 4th or 5th grade too?
Have fun with your hissy fit. It's the type of drama I enjoy here.
Do you send your daughter to Trump's harem? Do you send your son to Putin's chateau? (Anything for your Hero-master)
And Willie- I am older than you...And smarter since I am not A trump-chump who enjoys having soap squirted into the ears...
Wasn't there a White supremacist/Trumper who went around smashing winds and setting fires with a mask on trying to make it look like BLM rioters? You guys are trying to make everything worse- YOU start fires and then claim it was BLM...
I watch most of the idiot liberals around San Leandro and they are trying to help their neighbors- But most of the new "Conservatives" are into screwing other people over...No consideration, no honor, no honesty anymore. They are now the scum of the earth!
I Enjoy wearing them and yet I don't judge gay boys like you...Go play with your boyfriend who you hero-whoreship......
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:
Do you send your daughter to Trump's harem? Do you send your son to Putin's chateau? (Anything for your Hero-master)
And Willie- I am older than you...And smarter since I am not A trump-chump who enjoys having soap squirted into the ears...
Wasn't there a White supremacist/Trumper who went around smashing winds and setting fires with a mask on trying to make it look like BLM rioters? You guys are trying to make everything worse- YOU start fires and then claim it was BLM...
I watch most of the idiot liberals around San Leandro and they are trying to help their neighbors- But most of the new "Conservatives" are into screwing other people over...No consideration, no honor, no honesty anymore. They are now the scum of the earth!
Sorry I missed this one. I do my best reading every single freakin' post in TO/T (as if I have nothing better to do) but I sometimes lose track of what I've read and what I haven't. There are at least three people here I would like to put on probation because of uncalled for remarks and direct attacks. And I still might. But for now I'll just put this thread in the Trash Can. That doesn't mean I'm letting this one slip by. And just because this thread is now in the Trash Can, that doesn't mean you now have carte blanche.
A lesson is learned and taught. Stay as close to ON topic as possible and as far away from personalities as possible. Topics may shift back and forth somewhat but still avoid being personal;.
So if the fires are natural, why are cars melting their aluminum into puddles and fireproof clay roofing tiles self-igniting mere feet away from crops and trees that are completely unharmed? When I was in high school our calculus class got to meet the dude who put a huge laser in a jet plane as a missile defense project and new apaches have these DEWs too
In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability. It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence.
**metacognition, awareness and understanding of one's own thought processes.
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