Originally posted by pokeyfiero: And by not taking a side against them both you condone one groups crimes by excuse that they are not as bad as the others.
No. I don't consider an elected offical failing to come up with a solution or fulfill a campaign promise a crime. In the same way that I don't consider an underdone steak a crime, just bad service. And I can elect to not go back to that restaurant or vote for that same candidate next time around.
If on the other hand that candidate slaps a police officer or airline baggage check girl or is found to have FBI sting money in his freezer or is plowed into a telephone pole while driving drunk, or has National Archive documents stuffed down his pants....THAT is another matter.
[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 08-24-2007).]
Australia ASX 100 -7.50 -0.15% 4,989.90 8/28 5:01pm Australia ASX All Ords -7.60 -0.12% 6,177.30 8/28 5:01pm Australia ASX Mid-cap 50 -16.10 -0.26% 6,261.90 8/28 5:01pm Hong Kong Hang Seng -213.97 -0.91% 23,363.76 8/28 5:59pm Hong Kong HSCC Red Chip -64.42 -1.36% 4,670.74 8/28 4:25pm Japan Nikkei 225 -13.90 -0.09% 16,287.49 8/28 4:30pm
Europe
Belgium Bel 20 -2.05 -0.05% 4,231.81 8/28 1:49pm Europe DJ Stoxx -25.06 -0.67% 3,696.88 8/28 1:49pm Europe Euronext 100 -8.19 -0.83% 983.62 8/28 1:49pm Europe Euronext 150 -14.48 -0.78% 1,843.95 8/28 1:49pm France CAC -53.41 -0.96% 5,537.13 8/28 1:49pm France SBF 80 -35.76 -0.53% 6,663.71 8/28 1:49pm France SBF 120 -36.58 -0.90% 4,039.13 8/28 1:49pm Germany DAX -19.80 -0.26% 7,466.19 8/28 1:49pm Germany MDAX -72.15 -0.72% 10,009.90 8/28 1:49pm Germany TECDAX -6.07 -0.67% 896.81 8/28 1:49pm Netherlands AEX -6.23 -1.20% 511.89 8/28 1:49pm Norway BRIX -0.53 -0.01% 3,807.19 8/27 12:00am Norway OSE Industry -7.19 -0.43% 420.05 8/28 1:48pm Sweden OMX -9.06 -0.75% 1,200.75 8/27 12:00am Sweden OMSX All Share -1.82 -0.46% 389.69 8/27 12:00am UK FTSE 100 -45.10 -0.73% 6,175.00 8/28 12:49pm UK FTSE All Shares -20.42 -0.64% 3,189.04 8/28 12:49pm UK FTSE Eurotop -24.00 -0.76% 3,130.92 8/28 12:49pm UK FTSE Techmark -1.42 -0.09% 1,651.09 8/28 12:49pm
When will it be called an adjustment and how many days in a row does the ENTIRE WORLD MARKET need to drop 1% before you consider calling it an adjustment?
When the line graph/chart goes down, down, down over a small period of time (NOT A COUPLE DAYS OR EVEN A WEEK) and then that line graph/chart flatlines for a long period of time. Then, you have a market adjustment.
The Dow dropped from 14,000 to 13,000 over the past couple weeks. Now, if the Dow stays at around 13,000 for a month or so.... It's a market adjustment. But, the Dow could just as easily bounce back up to 14,000 in the next week and then down to 13,000 the follow weeks. It isn't adjusting. It's flucuating.
When the line graph/chart goes down, down, down over a small period of time (NOT A COUPLE DAYS OR EVEN A WEEK) and then that line graph/chart flatlines for a long period of time. Then, you have a market adjustment.
The Dow dropped from 14,000 to 13,000 over the past couple weeks. Now, if the Dow stays at around 13,000 for a month or so.... It's a market adjustment. But, the Dow could just as easily bounce back up to 14,000 in the next week and then down to 13,000 the follow weeks. It isn't adjusting. It's flucuating.
So a DROP in the WORLD MARKET is not considered an adjustment? Okay.
What is it called when every market on the PLANET drops for the second time in two weeks?
Would you call that a adjustment, fluke, fluctuation, blip, fart or is it NORMAL for the ENTIRE WORLD MARKET to loose 1 % on any given day of the week?
BBL Surfs up!
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 08-28-2007).]
Personally I hope it crashes so bad that those with millions in the market jump out windows, CEO types anyway.
Problem is this little fluctuation as you guys like to call them are hurting the little people that have stocks.
They can’t afford these little losses.
Good god! he finally said it! 11 pages and THE TRUTH BE KNOWN!
And as for the last comment, flucuwhiteguy! heh.
I guess you want them (the small investor) to LOSE EVERYTHING just so you can shout with glee that the folks who have, make, and are generally worth more than you on every level will also suffer,,,,,,,, This IS the most idiotic statement I have read since joining this group!
Personally I hope it crashes so bad that those with millions in the market jump out windows, CEO types anyway.
Problem is this little fluctuation as you guys like to call them are hurting the little people that have stocks.
They can’t afford these little losses.
You do know that the vast majority or money in the market is that of every day joes right? If the market crashes so does the pensions of a 100 or 200 million people. Thats not including the people who just stick money in it as an investment to diversify their holdings.
Originally posted by Red88FF: What the hell do you care anyway?
Lets see how the world responds to the dow posting loss of -280.
The Dow did the same thing in 1920 blah blah blah and the people thought the same thing back then.. The exchange comission put in place contrils to porevent that from happeneing again. But back then trade with other countries wasnt as intense and tightly knit as it is today so those controls MAY not be as effective in a GLOBAL market... But lets just see what happens shall we?
Originally posted by Phranc: You do know that the vast majority or money in the market is that of every day joes right? If the market crashes so does the pensions of a 100 or 200 million people. Thats not including the people who just stick money in it as an investment to diversify their holdings.
Thats right Phranc, but the vast majority of those people dont live in ivory towers and the windows they will jump out of arent all that far off the ground. Sure the majority will loose their houses (most have two) maybe the car the boat wave runner and the plasma TV and their jobs but they will survive... Probably on welfare and soup lines.. oh the "humility" of actually having to stand in line with "the trash" of society will be tough at first.
Those who will be effected the most are middle and upper classes with the exception of the most gluttonous money pigs and government officials.
The lower class... "my class" wont even notice the difference... To them it will be just another day in America. No different than any other day.
Fortunatly my reserves are well protected in a network.
From you, I can dig up the quote if I have to but you CLAIMED to have bailed out of the stock market two years ago earlier in this thread
123 stepped up and showed his true colors and his hopes for the well being of his fellow Americans, are you sharing his ideals?
Sorry to bust your bubble but even dropping the market 8,000 points will not put much of anybody on the soup lines. Didn't last time, and that was only a few years ago so even you should be able to remember that. Dam, I could swear we have been through all of this on this thread already!!!!!!
Red88FF wrote "13,270.68 that is still very high. I am STILL not worried. I wonder how many of you complainers actually own stock other than in a retirement fund?"
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
Sold mine off last year... while I had the ability... Good luck.
Personally I hope it crashes so bad that those with millions in the market jump out windows, CEO types anyway.
What would your reaction be if someone say "I hope all the little poor guys lose lots of money, so they'll kill themselves and we don't have any more of them"?
quote
Problem is this little fluctuation as you guys like to call them are hurting the little people that have stocks.
They can’t afford these little losses.
If you can't afford the losses, you should not invest in the stock market.
Originally posted by fierobear: If you can't afford the losses, you should not invest in the stock market.
This i agree with, problem is most people use brokers, who are suposed to know what they are doing, who recomend stocks, good or bad these guys,(the Brokers) make money.
You see this is what I am talking about, no one reads all of a post or if they do they don’t understand what is written.
To show what I was trying to say I will repost my original post in parts so those with to much education and STML, and those CEO’s on here.
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123: Personally I hope it crashes so bad that those with millions in the market jump out windows, CEO types anyway.
I don’t want to see anyone die, but the CEO’s who have repeatedly destroyed the American Dream by sending jobs overseas, gotten bonus after bonus even thought the companies are doing just fine without the outsourcing.
Or the CEO’s who keep getting those Million Dollar salaries when the companies are going down the tubes, yet they still make millions.
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123: Problem is this little fluctuation as you guys like to call them are hurting the little people that have stocks.
This is where I feel the market FLUCTUATIONS, as you in the know so to speak, like to call them, are hurting the little people and that is just wrong. The little people are the ones who are getting hurt the most. They can’t afford to loose their nest eggs, retirement funds, and more because of some investment counselor, (stock broker) who recommends those, BUY, BUY, BUY. SELL, SELL, SELL.
These guys are as bad as the aforementioned CEOs. They make money every time someone makes a trade, good or bad.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
I think some of you are making this minor correction out to be a crash, when it is nothing close. I can't vouch for the rest of the country, but around here, people seem to hardly be taking notice. It appears to be hitting the lower socio-economic portions of the population with foreclosure, etc, but those were people who got themselves in over their head, its their own fault. Mid and upper income folks haven't been affected other than watching some of their investments drop. But the thing with folks who invest, people with lots of money know to diversify. A lot of my personal investments are currently losing money. I have quite a bit of my savings invested very aggressively (90% of it) and last week it was 15%+ drop in value from May. No sweat, it will come back, just as it always does and will. I won't lose sleep over it, or my house. The big-wigs at work are still parking in their assigned parking spots at work, Porsches, Corvettes (old and brand new), BMW 750Lis, more Porsches, more BMW 7-series cars, etc. I don't see much of a panic, and our Mortgage department has been spending money like its going out of style with their IT projects. Our latest numbers showed out Mortgage department barely shows the market change reflecting in their numbers.
The big, bad, rich. The evil affects of capitalism. I suspect several people on here wear hooded sweatshirts with big sunglasses, while they write rambling dissertations from their shack in the woods.
Red88FF wrote "13,270.68 that is still very high. I am STILL not worried. I wonder how many of you complainers actually own stock other than in a retirement fund?"
Confidence takes biggest hit in 2 years Problems in mortgage, housing and stock markets have American consumers less confident about economy. By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer August 28 2007: 5:03 PM EDT
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Turmoil in the stock and housing markets caused the biggest drop in consumer confidence in almost two years in August, according to a closely watched survey released Tuesday.
The Conference Board said its consumer confidence index fell to 105.0 in the latest survey of 5,000 households from a revised 111.9 reading in July.
It was the biggest month-over-month drop since September 2005, when hurricanes Katrina and Rita sent gas prices to then record levels. This time, the problem was a series of financial storms, as consumers focused on problems in subprime mortgages, and falling home and stock prices.
"A softening in business conditions and labor market conditions has curbed consumers' confidence this month," said Lynn Franco, director of the Conference Board's Consumer Research Center, which conducts the monthly survey of 5,000 households. "In addition, the volatility in financial markets and continued subprime housing woes may have played a role in dampening consumers' spirits."
The reading was also the lowest in a year, though it came in a shade better than the average forecast of 104.5 from economists surveyed by Briefing.com.
"Consumers have obviously been paying some attention to financial market troubles, and this appears to have weighed on their confidence," said Adam York, an economic analyst with Wachovia.
Franco said that the answers to various survey answers showed that confidence, while battered, hasn't vanished.
"Consumers still remain confident," she said. The latest reading is well above the post-Katrina reading of 86.6, the last time confidence saw this kind of shock.
"Current index levels suggest further economic growth in the months ahead," said Franco.
Those polled who said that business conditions are "good" decreased to 26.4 percent from 28.3 percent in July, while those saying conditions are "bad" increased to 16.3 percent from 14.5 percent. And those who described jobs as "hard to get" increased to 19.7 percent from 18.7 percent, while those who saw jobs as "plentiful" decreased to 27.5 percent from 30.0 percent in July.
But while those who expect business conditions to worsen in the next six months rose to 10.6 percent from 8.2 percent, that was still well below the 15 percent who believe business conditions will improve.
Consumer confidence is closely watched as a predictor of American's willingness to spend money, particularly on big-ticket items. Consumer spending fuels nearly three-quarters of the nation's economic activity.
Consumers interest in buying a house actually ticked up slightly in the latest survey, with 3.5 percent saying they planned such a purchase in the next six months, up from 3.3 percent in July. But the percent who said they were uncertain about a home purchase gained by the same amount, up to 0.8 percent from 0.6 percent.
But their intention to buy other big-ticket items took a larger hit, as those intending to buy a car in the next six months fell to 6.1 percent from 7.3 percent in July, while those planning major appliance purchases dropped to 28.6 from 31.4 percent.
Earlier Tuesday, S&P/Case-Shiller Home Price Index showed housing values down 3.2 percent in the second quarter from a year earlier. The economists who completed the widely respected study said there is no sign that the slide will end soon.
In addition, the Dow Jones industrial average closed Monday off 5 percent from the record high close it hit in mid-July; a 10 percent drop typically reflects a market correction. Other major indexes are down about 6 percent over the same period. Partly on the weak confidence number and the latest housing reading, stocks were generally lower in early afternoon trading Tuesday, ahead of the release of minutes of the last meeting of the Federal Reserve.
But bonds rallied, trimming the yield on the 10-year note to about 4.54 percent in midday trading, on increased hopes that the drop in consumer confidence could help to spur the Federal Reserve to cut interest rates at its upcoming Sept. 18 meeting.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 08-29-2007).]
Confidence takes biggest hit in 2 years Problems in mortgage, housing and stock markets have American consumers less confident about economy. By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer August 28 2007: 5:03 PM EDT .....
2 years? this whole recession/crash/whatever you wanna call it started shortly after 9/11 & before the Iraq war. we have yet to recover. fuel/energy costs have killed many previously profitable businesses that depended on cheap fuel. economy issues take a LONG LONG LONG time to take shape. years. decades.
and - if you are foolish enough to think that stockbrokers jumping out of windows due to failed investments is funny - you should know that by the time it reaches that stage - the bottom end folk are already a long time unemployed. remember who gets it in the face first.
Here's my prediction for what the next 2 years will bring.
Housing will crash WORSE than 1987. All the Toddsters out there getting regular folks into creative financing scams will have to find new lines of work, and the people that were too greedy to see they couldn't afford these 500K homes will lose their houses. People who bought before the bubble started will be fine. Those people bought at realistic prices. UNLESS they took second mortgages against their equity. Equity that was over inflated.
The prices of homes are exaggerated in large part because of cheap money being lent to anybody with a social security number and scamming brokers and appraisers claiming homes are worth 50% to double what they are actually worth.
Now that the cheap money has dried up, all the brokers and realtors will start drying up, now add the construction companies to that list. The financial markets will take an unprecedented beating and many will go under. Countrywide is a sign of things to come. They will probably go bankrupt or be bought out relatively soon.
Investors are going to take a hit as well, because all of the wealth that has been built up over the past 5 years or so is not actually worth what the paper says, the papers might say an investment is worth 1 trillion dollars but the reality is that that 1 trillion investment is actually a promise to pay back debt owed by people and corporations. So what is that 1 trillion really worth if the assets backing it up stop paying and start going bankrupt?
If someone bought a 1 million dollar home, the bank paid that 1 million to the seller of the home, but the buyer actually can't afford the payments and 1 year later he stops paying. The house is foreclosed, the bank sells the house. But the house is only worth $700,000, and it takes the bank 5 months to figure this out and finally sell. Now the bank is not only out the 300,000 it lost off the top, it is also out the cost of selling and the cost of holding the property for 5 months.
Now imagine that 1 trillion dollars of repackaged debt is really 1 million over stretched home owners coupled with loans to construction companies that are no longer doing any construction? Uh oh!!!
The thing is, if you look at peoples salaries and savings and then compare that to the debt owed on their homes and cars, it just doesn't add up. Everybody was in this great big bubble party and raking in the cash and nobody wanted to own up to the fact that it was all a big scam.
It was a win win situation for all, or so they thought. The Realtors made huge commisions, the home sellers raked in the profits, flippers raked in the profits, home builders raked in the profits, brokers made out like bandits, banks sold the loans for huge profits, retailers were inundated with people buying crap with all their new found equity loan money, people had new jobs in all of these industries.
But then....
What happens when someone who doesn't have a house to sell wants to buy a house? He can't rake in the inflated profits of his overpriced home to buy a bigger overpriced home. But everybody wants the money party to continue. So brokers lend these people the money they need to buy the home (while taking their commission of course), banks buy the bundled junk debt, sellers take the profits. Guess what, the median household income is $48,000. The median home price is $230,000. Uh oh, what does that tell you?
Now the market owns that debt. And the people in those houses are only making 1/3rd what they should be making in order to afford that house. Plus they are driving a $60,000 Navigator of course.
These people can't really afford to buy, and these people stop paying. Don't think it's just subprime people or poor people. It's EVERYBODY new to the market and EVERYBODY that took out huge equity loans. People who took equity loans from banks that appraised their home for more than it was actually worth run into trouble because now they owe more than their house is actually worth when they try to sell. And they can't afford the two mortgages anymore. They thought that their home values would keep going up and that the home equity would pay higher returns than the interest on the loan. But they were wrong. And they stop paying. And they too loose their homes.
Now all that financial wizardry comes to a point where nobody knows what anything is actually worth. So the jig is up. People lose their homes. Lenders stop lending. Markets stop making profits.
The whole system was rigged. The only way to get into the market was to buy something that was selling for more than it was actually worth. And that's what people did. And nobody wanted to face the fact that this would all come at a price.
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 08-29-2007).]
Wow! just wow. very typical of his kind of mindset.
there is much truth and fact in his layout. he is not screaming the sky is falling, or we are all doomed, just projecting already in motion problems. the "credit boom" from the 80's/90's has reached its peak, and cant be realistictly extended anymore. so, we now have to get back to "normal", which to many, seems like a depression, because they're employment was due to surfing on the credit bubble.
there is much truth and fact in his layout. he is not screaming the sky is falling, or we are all doomed, just projecting already in motion problems. the "credit boom" from the 80's/90's has reached its peak, and cant be realistictly extended anymore. so, we now have to get back to "normal", which to many, seems like a depression, because they're employment was due to surfing on the credit bubble.
No, what he is doing is taking information and basically making a worse case scenario, It boils down to the people that think and maybe even want the end is coming scenario and the people that don't. I simply stated that it is typical of his camp. This is quite evident by just reading peoples views of these events in this thread alone.
Originally posted by Red88FF: No, what he is doing is taking information and basically making a worse case scenario, It boils down to the people that think and maybe even want the end is coming scenario and the people that don't. I simply stated that it is typical of his camp. This is quite evident by just reading peoples views of these events in this thread alone.
only for people actually in that particular business. he's not calling for a economic disaster - just hard times for those in the housing & credit business. people will ALWAYS need a place to stay - so, it will never be a "dead" industry. but, it is settling back to "normal". and normal to many feels like a bust, especially if their only experience in the field was during the boom. yes, I say we are still better than normal right now - and still sinking. and, good chance, if fuel prices dont get to crazy, we will not sink below "normal".
only for people actually in that particular business. he's not calling for a economic disaster - just hard times for those in the housing & credit business. people will ALWAYS need a place to stay - so, it will never be a "dead" industry. but, it is settling back to "normal". and normal to many feels like a bust, especially if their only experience in the field was during the boom. yes, I say we are still better than normal right now - and still sinking. and, good chance, if fuel prices dont get to crazy, we will not sink below "normal".
Exactly. Not only that, but the wealth created during this last housing/credit bubble will outweigh the downturn that it will create. Basically housing will still settle at a higher price than when this bubble started around 7-10 years ago. You will never see a house that sold for 130K 12 years ago sell for less than 175K from now on. On the other hand though, all of this cheap money has contributed to a reduction in the value of the dollar so that 175K might only be worth 135K from 12 years ago. The numeric value has gone up, but the intrinsic value may not. Inflation, in other words. But this pop will certainly wash away most of these brokers, realtors, double digit yearly appreciation, and many financial giants like countrywide.
This country was and always will rely on propped up financial bubbles. The question now is, what's the next one? I hear a lot about Index funds, green energy, and emerging markets. Maybe one of those will be over exaggerated next.
This country was and always will rely on propped up financial bubbles.
I believe that's more of a late 20th Century problem caused by going off the gold standard. Nothing tangible to regulate the money's worth leads to artificial inflation and deflation of prices. That's the reason Nixon took us off the gold standard in the first place - so the Fed could manipulate the economy more effectively. It's also a prime reason for the runaway inflation of the late 70's.
I'm not sure about your scenario, but I think a worst case economic scenario could easily be a repeat of the economic downturn we had turn the late 70's. Double-digit inflation and "misery index" to tell you how screwed you are. By comparison, our economy is quite robust - at least on the surface.
While on the gold standard, the U.S. build the wealthiest middle class in the world. After going off of it, we've seen the dollar's value continue to fall. Modern families fare better than those in the 70's primarily by having more than 1 income earner in the household.
I believe that's more of a late 20th Century problem caused by going off the gold standard. Nothing tangible to regulate the money's worth leads to artificial inflation and deflation of prices. That's the reason Nixon took us off the gold standard in the first place - so the Fed could manipulate the economy more effectively. It's also a prime reason for the runaway inflation of the late 70's.
I'm not sure about your scenario, but I think a worst case economic scenario could easily be a repeat of the economic downturn we had turn the late 70's. Double-digit inflation and "misery index" to tell you how screwed you are. By comparison, our economy is quite robust - at least on the surface.
While on the gold standard, the U.S. build the wealthiest middle class in the world. After going off of it, we've seen the dollar's value continue to fall. Modern families fare better than those in the 70's primarily by having more than 1 income earner in the household.
While that's true. There is more to the story. It dates all the way back to "Bank Notes", these were issued by any bank or financial institution and were supposedly backed by gold and silver, but they almost never were. There was a great article recently in the New York times Sunday edition explaining the historical similarities. They mentioned all sorts of financial credit collapses dating back to the 1830's.
By the way my home is single family earner home. And I can tell you it's freakin hard.
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 08-29-2007).]
I think I read that Times article. There was also mention of how even using gold wasn't a guarantee, becaue the government can simply outlaw gold - like they did in 1933. (I think that's the right year)
The great thing about the gold standard was, an ounce of gold in the 1800's was about as valuable then as it is today. It's buying power really hasn't changed much.
I think I read that Times article. There was also mention of how even using gold wasn't a guarantee, becaue the government can simply outlaw gold - like they did in 1933. (I think that's the right year)
The great thing about the gold standard was, an ounce of gold in the 1800's was about as valuable then as it is today. It's buying power really hasn't changed much.
Right, and another thing about gold is even today you can check the value of the dollar against it to see how bad inflation is.
On the other hand, believe it or not even gold is not immune to "bubbles". Do you remember just a few years ago when people started investing in gold in large numbers? Gold prices were through the roof, and then they collapsed back to reality. Just a side note..
Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: Right, and another thing about gold is even today you can check the value of the dollar against it to see how bad inflation is.
On the other hand, believe it or not even gold is not immune to "bubbles". Do you remember just a few years ago when people started investing in gold in large numbers? Gold prices were through the roof, and then they collapsed back to reality. Just a side note..
gold prices are affected by times of war. just before & during - the price goes up - afterwards - the price drops.
True. Like any commodity, it's price does fluctuate. When I was in High School, gold was about $700 an ounce. I remember because it made my class ring stupid expensive.
Gold is selling for less today than it did back in the early 80's. Over the last 30 years, the natural level of gold seems to be around $400 an ounce. http://goldprice.org/30-yea...d-price-history.html
True. Like any commodity, it's price does fluctuate. When I was in High School, gold was about $700 an ounce. I remember because it made my class ring stupid expensive.
Gold is selling for less today than it did back in the early 80's. Over the last 30 years, the natural level of gold seems to be around $400 an ounce. http://goldprice.org/30-yea...d-price-history.html
Is that $400 is todays dollars? Because $700 today would be less than $400 in 1950, considering a brand new house was $10,000, and you could get a new car for on average for $1,550.
Using the "Bill" philosphy that the economy is in the dumps because the market dropped one day, the economy must be taking off today, as the market is up, up, up.
Using the "Bill" philosphy that the economy is in the dumps because the market dropped one day, the economy must be taking off today, as the market is up, up, up.
