This is flat out unconscionable. I know I'll catch hell for this from the peanut gallery but this is a serious issue.
I found this line at the bottom of one of my posts recently and sure enough, a sentence had been deleted. The "remark" wasn't even rude or profain. Unnecessary? Probably. But so is 90% of the stufff we all post here.
If Cliff can arbitrarily edit our posts what exactly is out of bounds and what isn't? I've seen crap end up in the trash can that was so vile and offensive as to not even be readable without feeling sick to the stomach. And yet an off-hand quip gets editted out?
Before: "Well, I know about as much about computer systems as _________ knows about economics but having an electrician's license and a plumber's license I can offer an observation here." {name withheld to keep us on topic}
After: "Having an electrician's license and a plumber's license I can offer an observation here."
What does everyone think? Does this really deserve to be singled-out in comparison to the personal stuff that goes unchecked here?
[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 12-26-2007).]
not sure what to think but where is the post and what did it originaly say? can't just go ranting about something without some background?
edited original to add context. However, the words are almost irrelevant. The question is does he have the right to edit someome else's posts or not? I've had people PM me before asking that I edit certain comments and I have been happy to oblige in most cases. There was no request here. I could have gone back in and RE-EDITTED Cliff's deletion but I didn't. I want opinions.
[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 12-26-2007).]
Originally posted by Toddster: This is flat out unconscionable. I know I'll catch hell for this from the peanut gallery but this is a serious issue. I found this line at the bottom of one of my posts recently and sure enough, a sentence had been deleted. The "remark" wasn't even rude or profain. Unnecessary? Probably. But so is 90% of the stufff we all post here. If Cliff can arbitrarily edit our posts what exactly is out of bounds and what isn't? I've seen crap end up in the trash can that was so vile and offensive as to not even be readable without feeling sick to the stomach. And yet an off-hand quip gets editted out?
Before: "Well, I know about as much about computer systems as _________ knows about economics but having an electrician's license and a plumber's license I can offer an observation here." {name withheld to keep us on topic}
After: "Having an electrician's license and a plumber's license I can offer an observation here." What does everyone think? Does this really deserve to be singled-out in comparison to the personal stuff that goes unchecked here?
that's damn weard. your quote doesn't show what you are saying in the thread.
"Let the **** fight begin but this is flat out unconscionable. I found this line at the bottom of one of my posts recently and sure enough, a sentence had been deleted. The "remark" wasn't even rude or profain. Unnecessary? Probably. But so is 90% of the stufff we all post here. If Cliff can arbitrarily edit our posts what exactly is out of bounds and what isn't? I've seen crap end up in the trash can that was so vile and offensive as to not even be readable without feeling sick to the stomach. And yet an offhand quip about another member's lack of education in economics gets editted out?
Before: "Well, I know about as much about computer systems as _________ knows about economics but having an electrician's license and a plumber's license I can offer an observation here." {name withheld to keep us on topic}
After: "Having an electrician's license and a plumber's license I can offer an observation here." What does everyone think? Does this really deserve to be singled-out in comparison to the personal stuff that goes unchecked here?"
the biggest difference is in red.
[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 12-26-2007).]
edited original to add context. However, the words are almost irrelevant. The question is does he have the right to edit someome else's posts or not? I've had people PM me before asking that I edit certain comments and I have been happy to oblige in most cases. There was no request here. I could have gone back in and RE-EDITTED Cliff's deletion but I didn't. I want opinions.
I think he has the right to do anything he wants. That to the specific question you are asking. I don't know what the circumstances are here though. Can't say I care either cause it would just end up back at he has the right to do anything he wants. I assume he didn't ask for anyones opinion when he did whatever it was he did.
His style is to let things get worked out and allow freedom to run its course so it seems odd he would step on you. Maybe he just got tired of people fighting. I sure do. Anyway you ain't one for cutting anyone slack here so suck it up it's Christmas.
------------------
Though I am branded a devil in priests clothing I cast not the raiment I wear for I am not beholden to any flock with which any color has been given to me.
I'm not going to comment on what Cliff did or didn't do until he chimes in.
but are you the same guy selling off all of your fiero stuff and getting out of these cars???
let me be the first to tell you to stick your power steering unit up your butt. sideways. and waddle out the door.
have a nice day.
EDIT: damn it... John beat me to it.
Wow. Kinda out of character for you. I like you better the way you usually are. I get used to the way people are here. You threw me on that one. Some are stubborn or petty or abrasive and argumentative. Normal for them. You get the 180 degree award today.
Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Wow. Kinda out of character for you. I like you better the way you usually are. I get used to the way people are here. You threw me on that one. Some are stubborn or petty or abrasive and argumentative. Normal for them. You get the 180 degree award today.
we have a history. the power steering thing was a reminder for him. i've never given him a neg (reads, I've never tried to vote him off) but i wont mind him leaving.
and the whole thing smells fishy. i've never seen Cliff edit someones post. Lock a thread, or move it. but never EDIT it.
I've seen crap end up in the trash can that was so vile and offensive as to not even be readable without feeling sick to the stomach.
So have I. The problem is, it’s often your crap. Your much discussed treatment here of Euterpe was "vile and offensive" beyond comprehension.
And not that I was worried for half a second, but reading your threats about how you were going to run me off this forum many months ago was really quite a moving experience. Yeah, I was shaking my head in absolute disbelief.
I mean really Todd, who the heck do you think you are here anyway? News flash - You’re just another PFF member among thousands. You are not important. You are not special...
Perhaps Cliff is simply getting tired of your colossal arrogance, your stadium sized ego, and your repeated bullying tactics here at PFF.
Your post was edited because you started your post with an obvious flamebait. To be precise, it was a direct derogatory remark at another member. It had nothing to do with the subject at hand and was yet again nothing more than another attempt to use a perfectly nice and friendly thread for your own purposes. I indeed removed this sentance (click to see the entire thread and tell me if your remark was anything else but a flamebait): "Well, I know about as much about computer systems as 84Bill knows about economics but having an electrician's license...". In fact, I deleted 84Bill's response in its entirety. Don't like it? Go somewhere else. Personally I'm getting sick and tired of your BS and your total lack of respect for forum rules. If you want to know, I just had to delete a feedback you gave in The Mall to someone else because you used the feedback system again for your personal vendetta with another member (by giving feedback for something that happened on eBay). I also freshly remember when you accused me of taking money to let a banned member back on. .
And now this? So what's your goal here, to have a personal gripe with everyone here on the forum? Well, you're doing a damn fine job then. So as long as you don't stop your childish BS, I won't stop editing/removing/moving your posts (while I much rather be ignoring them).
And I can't stress enough: don't like it? By all means - leave. And don't give me your "I'm a long time donator" crap. That gives you no right whatsoever to do here whatever you damn well please to do.
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: In fact, I deleted 84Bill's response in its entirety.
Oh yeah, it was my post wasnt it... Here I though it was old age creeping up on me or incoherent something or another. :shruggs: ------------------ I know as much about the economy as the president of the United States.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 12-26-2007).]
Don't like it Todd, pack your bags and leave. This is Cliff's house, his rules. You don't like those rules, there's the door.
John Stricker
I gotta agree, man. As a moderator on another forum I gotta tell you, we're damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't. If we don't "moderate" then someone gets pissy that they "can't let their children read the forum" or some such nonsense, if we DO moderate then we get "the moderators here are a bunch of jack-booted thugs!" or some equal such nonsense.
What I say when someone calls me a jack-booted thug or starts cries of "Censorship!"on MY forum:
This is NOT a "free country", this website is privately owned and you're assuming "rights" to free speech that do not extend here.
Don't like it? Leave.
Period, Paragraph, The End!
[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 12-26-2007).]
Im a little suprised. Not saying Cliff isnt allowed to do whatever he wants, but I will say I've never seen it before, and I have seen a lot more reprehensible discussion I know he was privy to.
But like its been said, if you dont like it leave. I was a on a Honda Insight forum. The moderators have some retarded idea that they could be held liable for what people post on thier forum so they have banned all conversation of the electric drive system, or IMA. The IMA nazi's close every thread that even mentions IMA. So I left. Took everything I know and have developed with me, information some people would love to have, and everything I have done with the rest of the car too.
But I think cliff realizes overmoderation can alienate people.
I'm not going to comment on what Cliff did or didn't do until he chimes in.
but are you the same guy selling off all of your fiero stuff and getting out of these cars???
let me be the first to tell you to stick your power steering unit up your butt. sideways. and waddle out the door.
have a nice day.
EDIT: damn it... John beat me to it.
Aren't YOU the guy who spent Christmas alone and I invited to Christmas dinner?
You were alone and I was surrounded by lots of loving people. Go figure.
But thanks for your input on this important topic.
Pokey, that is my point exactly. I was under the impression that there are rules here. so what are they because I didn't see the one that said Cliff can re-write my posts anytime the mood strikes him. Did I miss that one?
And aren’t you the guy who said in a previous thread that home prices will never go down?
Todd you have been a thorn in many peoples side for a long time. If you can’t win a argument with your (in your own minds) superior intellect. You will bash people. No matter what the truth is, you are right.
I also am a moderator on another forum who would never have put up with your crap for as long as Cliff has.
Granted I will admit that I do get out of hand at times here, but only after being degraded by you and others.
Merry Christmas
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
Aren't YOU the guy who spent Christmas alone and I invited to Christmas dinner?
You were alone and I was surrounded by lots of loving people. Go figure.
But thanks for your input on this important topic.
Pokey, that is my point exactly. I was under the impression that there are rules here. so what are they because I didn't see the one that said Cliff can re-write my posts anytime the mood strikes him. Did I miss that one?
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: If you want to know, I just had to delete a feedback you gave in The Mall to someone else because you used the feedback system again for your personal vendetta with another member (by giving feedback for something that happened on eBay).
If you read the threads related you will see that that member posted in my Mall thread about the mats making it a PFF issue. YOU made the rules. I'm within them. If the guy didn't want to make it a PFF issue he should have kept it off the forum. The minute he posted in my mall thread he opened himself up for feedback. I reposted the feedback.
[QUOTE]I also freshly remember when you accused me of taking money to let a banned member back on. .
Just repeating what Hugh threatened me with. Take it up with him.
quote
And now this? So what's your goal here,
To have some consistency. I have been on the receiving end of the worst and most vile insults and profanity there is. Did you edit those comments to stop a flame war? Did you even read Bill's economics thread? I haven't posted in months. I simply made a remark that the forum already knows like the sun is hot or the sky is blue. I could just as easily have said I know as much about computer science as Einstein knows about Fieros. Would you have been offended? If Einstein was alive would he have been offended? Can we all at least acknowledge that there are offensive comments posted here DAILY and who is to know what IS and is NOT offensive to one person or another? I can remember when flying the Confederate flag was not considering offensive. It is now. WHY? Because some people are too sensetive and CHOOSE to interpret a message as offensive whether it is intended that way or not.
The question is, why are you not editing THOSE COMMENTS? What exactly ARE the rules that you let other people slide? Because I can point to a dozen posts in THIS THREAD alone that are more offensive than anything I posted. So I ask again, WHAT IS THE STANDARD? WHAT ARE THE RULES THAT WE ALL ARE SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW? Or do they just apply to Toddster?
quote
And don't give me your "I'm a long time donator" crap. That gives you no right whatsoever to do here whatever you damn well please to do.
Guess you haven't noticed but I'm not a donor any more; not since your role of benelovent dictator has wained. Strike me down with a thunderbolt if you like but I am not going to shrink in fear of Zeus' reprisals just because I pointed out that he did something wrong. You were wrong Cliff.
note: edited by ME for typos
[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 12-26-2007).]
I gotta agree, man. As a moderator on another forum I gotta tell you, we're damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't.
I'm not arguing with you. I AGREE. We need a moderator. I just wish he WOULD moderate. I get a nothing of a comment edited but the crap that he just ignores is mind blowing. So I want a simple answer to a simple question, what are the rules and do they apply to everyone? If so, where is the consistency? How did my comment get edited but some of the garbage posted by trolls (several who've already weighed in on this discussion with their usual insults and vitriol) get a pass?
And aren’t you the guy who said in a previous thread that home prices will never go down?
Todd you have been a thorn in many peoples side for a long time. If you can’t win a argument with your (in your own minds) superior intellect. You will bash people. No matter what the truth is, you are right.
I also am a moderator on another forum who would never have put up with your crap for as long as Cliff has.
Granted I will admit that I do get out of hand at times here, but only after being degraded by you and others.
Couldn't have you just "spoken" with Cliff about this via PM?
Would have been happy to do so. I have had other people ask me to edit my own posts before. I can't KNOW what offends every person on the forum. If I say something that someone takes the wrong way and it is politely explained to me then I have always been accomodating. I never got the chance this time.
All I did was make a joke about another forum member; A joke that had I told it to him personally he and I would both just laughed out loud over. That is NOT offensive. But the personal insults that he lets slide makes me question this double standard. What exactly IS out of bounds if THIS was edited but the comment above about me sticking my steering rack where the sun doesn't shine is considered acceptable discourse?
I have noticed, as I'm sure many others have, that anytime both Todd and Bill post in the same thread, that thread quickly goes to hell, regardless of what the thread was about. Since the thread in question was one started by Cliff about an issue he wanted to discuss, I would imagine his tolerance of BS in that particular thread was less than it might be somewhere else. That and he was obviously reading and following up on that thread, where comments made elsewhere may never be noticed.
Bill had already been active in the thread, when you post what Cliff apparently viewed as a jab at Bill. So rather than wait for the inevitable flame war to ruin the thread, he edited your snide remark and removed Bill's reply.
It was a judgement call on Cliff's part. You may disagree with it, but it's not a matter of right and wrong. He felt you were out of line and took steps to resolve the situation.
We all need to remember that free speech applies only to the government and it's control over speech (and that may or may not only be in the USA), it doesn't apply to individuals and business. This is Cliff's place, Cliff's rules. We're all Cliff's guests.
PFF is much more accommodating than some other forums. I belong to a diesel forum and the owner and moderator's keep a keep a tight reign like you would not believe on that site. There is no tolerance for general subjects at all. Holiday greetings, notice of the death of a forum member or family member, safety notices of a general subject, anything that has nothing to do with diesel trucks no matter how well intentioned is deleted without notice without explanation. There is no Trash Can, those threads are locked and/or deleted immediately.
We have it pretty good here if we just remember that we are guests while visiting PFF.
------------------ RickN White 88GT 5spd White 85GT Auto White 99 F250SD 7.3PSD 6spd 1956 Ford 860 w/ Freeman Loader
[This message has been edited by RickN (edited 12-26-2007).]
I have noticed, as I'm sure many others have, that anytime both Todd and Bill post in the same thread, that thread quickly goes to hell, regardless of what the thread was about. Since the thread in question was one started by Cliff about an issue he wanted to discuss, I would imagine his tolerance of BS in that particular thread was less than it might be somewhere else. That and he was obviously reading and following up on that thread, where comments made elsewhere may never be noticed.
Bill had already been active in the thread, when you post what Cliff apparently viewed as a jab at Bill. So rather than wait for the inevitable flame war to ruin the thread, he edited your snide remark and removed Bill's reply.
It was a judgement call on Cliff's part. You may disagree with it, but it's not a matter of right and wrong. He felt you were out of line and took steps to resolve the situation.
Then he could of PMed me and asked for a retraction. I have started countless threads that I wanted to have a serious discussion about that have gone down in flames thanks to the trolls of the world. I do not have the luxury of editing their comments. Should thread founders have the right to edit posts to their threads? I'm OK with that..as long as it applies to everyone.
Here I though it was old age creeping up on me or incoherent something or another. :shruggs:
