I received this comment from Micheal Leavitt, the president of Golden Gate Fieros.
quote
Originally posted by Whuffo: Golden Gate Fieros is not offering nor would it consider accepting an application for membership from you.
I found this odd considering the statement regarding membership on the Golden Gate Fieros' website:
Membership . Membership is open to all who own or have an interest in the Pontiac Fiero. The club has no membership fees or dues and is supported by the voluntary contributions of our members.
Personally I don't see any legal justification Micheal has for making such a statement. Is it fair for him to put his club in such legal jeopardy by denying access to the disabled?
------------------ Pleased to meet you, I hope you've guessed my name.
Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: Nice. i've never worried about how I've been welcomed by you or your club. I never displayed any interest in being in your club
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Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: I took your advice and talked to legal council. I do hope you have a legally defendable position to discriminate against me. He's very excited by that statement.
Are you going to spam that in every thread Jeff starts? Just curious - why the added emphasis on the first quote, but not the second? Are you preserving the record - or making one?
That's your defense? Sorry dude, I changed my mind and asked Micheal for an application via PM a couple of hours ago. I'd be happy to come to a Golden Gate Fiero meeting with a video camera and ask for an application there.
What can I say? I was impressed with the security at WestFest. Definately a tight operation you guys run.
1. Was anything said that you had a disability when you applied? 2. Was anything in your denial refer to your disability? 3. What are the membership requirements and what are the by-laws of the club about membership? Does the club have any by-laws?
1. Was anything said that you had a disability when you applied? 2. Was anything in your denial refer to your disability? 3. What are the membership requirements and what are the by-laws of the club about membership? Does the club have any by-laws?
Wah, wah, I'm not happy so I'm going to sue.
Hey, Gokart. Whuffo, our current president can answer this better, as he has copies of the appropriate documents. But I'll give some background.
We happily had been without formal membership, dues, initiation, etc for over 5 years. We recently decided to incorporate as a Not-for-profit Corporation for a variety of reasons, one of which is that we needed a federal tax ID, and the club's bank account has been under my wife's (the club tresurer) social security number for a number of years. We've recently been getting cars donated to the club, repaired and resold. That means that, amongst other things, all that money is falling under her social. So to set everything up right, we incorporated. We then discovered that according to the law, we had to have formal membership, a process which membership is decided, and guidelines for acceptance. It wasn't even our decision, just a byproduct of the not-for-profit Corporation rules and regulations.
I don't have a copy of those regs, but basically we can decided what the criteria for membership entails. Basically, you have to attend a minimum number of meetings or events, be a "member in good standing" (or something like that), and be approved by a membership committee. I hope that clears things up.
Just from reading this I am forning an opinion. People don't just make decisions of this nature without reason. I for one would like more information from both parties befor I set my opinion in concrete.
Sure they can discriminate. If you're a minority, or have a disability, or something like that, go ahead and sue them (tho don't be surprised if they sue you right back for lawyers fees and other costs when you lose.) If you are one of the minorities, a disabled person, or something like that, you have to prove that that's the reason they won't let you in. And if you DO decide sue, they'll just disband the club--they're smart, they've filed incorporation papers to insulate themselves from liability. If I join a club, I don't take on any of the club's debts or legal liabilities. (Unless I would agree to, and who would be dumb enough to do that?) The officers of the club are insulated from liability, too.
Oh, and by the way, social clubs, country clubs, fraternities, sororities, etc. decide to exclude certain people fairly regularly. If you sued, you'd probably be laughed out of court.
More than likely, tho, they don't want you in because they can't stand you, don't like you, don't want to have anything to do with you. Maybe they think your dishonest, or likely to break rules, or not keep up on dues. Maybe you're abrasive, swear too much (or not enuf), or you smell bad, look like a bum, eat too much garlic, onions, or baked beans. Maybe you're smarter, dumber, uglier, or prettier than they are. Probably your Fiero is just too nice, you dress too well, and make too much money--and they're just jealous.
I don't know you or any of the Golden Gators, so it's really nothing personal, but if they think you're an a s s hole, and the feeling is probably mutual, why would you want to be a member? And, if your not an a s s hole, why do you want to ruin someone else's fun?
[This message has been edited by Brian Lamberts (edited 07-04-2007).]
That's your defense? Sorry dude, I changed my mind and asked Micheal for an application via PM a couple of hours ago. I'd be happy to come to a Golden Gate Fiero meeting with a video camera and ask for an application there.
What can I say? I was impressed with the security at WestFest. Definately a tight operation you guys run.
2. I agree to show an interest in Fieros and be a positive benefit to the Golden Gate Fieros Club membership. 3. I will support our club mission and obey Golden Gate Fiero Club bylaws. 4. I understand that any inappropriate behavior, disruption of meetings or events, failing to get along with the group, and/or the unethical use or distribution of the club website, email addresses or member’s information, may result in having your membership revoked (this will include no refund of membership fees).
Originally posted by Brian Lamberts: Oh, and by the way, social clubs, country clubs, fraternities, sororities, etc. decide to exclude certain people fairly regularly. If you sued, you'd probably be laughed out of court.
More than likely, tho, they don't want you in because they can't stand you, don't like you, don't want to have anything to do with you. Maybe they think your dishonest, or likely to break rules, or not keep up on dues. Maybe you're abrasive, swear too much (or not enuf), or you smell bad, look like a bum, eat too much garlic, onions, or baked beans. Maybe you're smarter, dumber, uglier, or prettier than they are. Probably your Fiero is just too nice, you dress too well, and make too much money--and they're just jealous.
I don't know you or any of the Golden Gators, so it's really nothing personal, but if they think you're an a s s hole, and the feeling is probably mutual, why would you want to be a member? And, if your not an a s s hole, why do you want to ruin someone else's fun?
I don't know most of the Golden Gate Fiero club, either. And for the most part, those that I do know, I have a nuetral if not positive outlook towards them. I don't want to ruin anyone's fun, unless you consider it fun for Micheal Leavitt, Todd Amelio, John Szpara, and Andrew Villasnor to take every opportunity they can to make defamatory statements about me and allegations about my mental and emotional standing. That is going to come to a stop. I would prefer that the pressure come internally froom club members who do not want to be associated with slanderous gossip and behavior. These individuals have all acted as officers of Golden Gate Fieros in spreadinig allegations and innuendo about me.
I'm very aware that saying I'm gonna sue" is a very unpopular statement to make in the Fiero community. That''s why I made this thread, to give the club the opportunity to rectify this situation . Apparently John is just interested in quoting my posts, so possibly one of the other individuals can get busy on updating the Golden Gate Fiero website to include the more discriminitory membership bylaws.
1. I attended 2 meetings or events. March 2006, Redwood City _____________________________ Date Where June, 2007, Marina (WestFest) ______________________________ Date Where
2. I agree to show an interest in Fieros and be a positive benefit to the Golden Gate Fieros Club membership. 3. I will support our club mission and obey Golden Gate Fiero Club bylaws. 4. I understand that any inappropriate behavior, disruption of meetings or events, failing to get along with the group, and/or the unethical use or distribution of the club website, email addresses or member’s information, may result in having your membership revoked (this will include no refund of membership fees).
Signed, Jeffery Stillwell.
Thanks, John. I'll await the decision of the membership committe.
I don't know most of the Golden Gate Fiero club, either. And for the most part, those that I do know, I have a nuetral if not positive outlook towards them. I don't want to ruin anyone's fun, unless you consider it fun for Micheal Leavitt, Todd Amelio, John Szpara, and Andrew Villasnor to take every opportunity they can to make defamatory statements about me and allegations about my mental and emotional standing. That is going to come to a stop. I would prefer that the pressure come internally froom club members who do not want to be associated with slanderous gossip and behavior. These individuals have all acted as officers of Golden Gate Fieros in spreadinig allegations and innuendo about me.
I'm very aware that saying I'm gonna sue" is a very unpopular statement to make in the Fiero community. That''s why I made this thread, to give the club the opportunity to rectify this situation . Apparently John is just interested in quoting my posts, so possibly one of the other individuals can get busy on updating the Golden Gate Fiero website to include the more discriminitory membership bylaws.
Sure they can discriminate. If you're a minority, or have a disability, or something like that, go ahead and sue them (tho don't be surprised if they sue you right back for lawyers fees and other costs when you lose.) If you are one of the minorities, a disabled person, or something like that, you have to prove that that's the reason they won't let you in. And if you DO decide sue, they'll just disband the club--they're smart, they've filed incorporation papers to insulate themselves from liability. If I join a club, I don't take on any of the club's debts or legal liabilities. (Unless I would agree to, and who would be dumb enough to do that?) The officers of the club are insulated from liability, too.
Oh, and by the way, social clubs, country clubs, fraternities, sororities, etc. decide to exclude certain people fairly regularly. If you sued, you'd probably be laughed out of court.
More than likely, tho, they don't want you in because they can't stand you, don't like you, don't want to have anything to do with you. Maybe they think your dishonest, or likely to break rules, or not keep up on dues. Maybe you're abrasive, swear too much (or not enuf), or you smell bad, look like a bum, eat too much garlic, onions, or baked beans. Maybe you're smarter, dumber, uglier, or prettier than they are. Probably your Fiero is just too nice, you dress too well, and make too much money--and they're just jealous.
I don't know you or any of the Golden Gators, so it's really nothing personal, but if they think you're an a s s hole, and the feeling is probably mutual, why would you want to be a member? And, if your not an a s s hole, why do you want to ruin someone else's fun?
This is exactly how I feel. Why do you want to be part of something that you are not welcome in. Find someone that wants you. Should be easy enough!
You're right. I'd just like to know if someone is going to throw that in my face, unsolicited, (I hadn't asked, and in fact it was a response to me saying that I had never been interested in the club) why a club president would feel it necessary to go there. If that' s the case, I demand to know why my membership is denied. Let it be in the court of PFF public opinion. Golden Gate doesn't have anything I want. I don't want to take anyone to court that isn't going to make me do it.
Just for the record. Since I am the secretary and treasurer of GGF, that is an incomplete application for membership and will not be considered over the internet. If you really are interested in applying for membership, send me an email with your complete address and I will mail you a form to complete and send back with the proper fees to apply if you are truely serious and not just wanting to entertain the PFF members. Send me a PM with your private information. You know how to reach me, as you have done it in the past.
Just for the record. Since I am the secretary and treasurer of GGF, that is an incomplete application for membership and will not be considered over the internet. If you really are interested in applying for membership, send me an email with your complete address and I will mail you a form to complete and send back with the proper fees to apply if you are truely serious and not just wanting to entertain the PFF members. Send me a PM with your private information. You know how to reach me, as you have done it in the past.
Mary
I'll be happy to come to an upcoming meeting once my health permits. I saw no information about fees on the website other then voluntary contributions, sounds rather arbitrary to me. Could you please refer me to your bylaws regarding fees payable to consider an application?
My shop works on only German cars. I have the right to refuse any customer for any reason whatsoever. I've refused working on Mercedes due to the fact that I didn't like the way the customer presented himself to me and I felt that I would wind up in an argument over the repairs, so I never let it get that far. I've also refused cars due to the fact that they needed a junkyard not a mechanic. Sorry to say, but if the club doesn't want you....go away. Start your own Fiero club. The whole idea of a club is for people to get together and ENJOY the time together with their cars. It seems that even if you get in the Fiero club, there will always be a tension there. IMO Dave
------------------ 1999 Mercedes ML430, 450hp 1987 Fiero GT, 1986 Fiero SE-soon to be 3800, certified master technician www.njautobahn.com
2. I agree to show an interest in Fieros and be a positive benefit to the Golden Gate Fieros Club membership. 3. I will support our club mission and obey Golden Gate Fiero Club bylaws. 4. I understand that any inappropriate behavior, disruption of meetings or events, failing to get along with the group, and/or the unethical use or distribution of the club website, email addresses or member’s information, may result in having your membership revoked (this will include no refund of membership fees).
Might as well preserve everything for the record, I guess.
Quoted from www.goldengatefieros.org home page: 7/04/2007 20:09 Membership Membership is open to all who own or have an interest in the Pontiac Fiero. The club has no membership fees or dues and is supported by the voluntary contributions of our members.
Contact us For information on how to join our club or information about upcoming events.
Preserving this for the record, too.
If a club that advertises no membership fees wants to charge Jeff to join - then I'd say you've got a valid lawsuit on your hands.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-04-2007).]
As my Bear explained in a post earlier we are just incorporating and getting things set up. As of about a month ago the form for registration was accepted. Our website has yet to be updated. (Some people do need to light up around here) The fee involved for membership with GGF, for all that are truely interested. is only $15.00 and that would also pay for your club t-shirt and your membership card should you be accepted. If you are not accepted the fee would be refunded. All this would have been explained on a complete application form if Jeffrey asked for it if he was truely interested and serious about applying for membership and not just wanting to be funny and make fun on PFF.
Originally posted by MrsBear: (Some people do need to light up around here) ... If you are not accepted the fee would be refunded. All this would have been explained on a complete application form if Jeffrey asked for it if he was truely interested and serious about applying for membership and not just wanting to be funny and make fun on PFF.
I can see how John and Micheal could benefit from a bowl load.
Mary, I'm not trying to amuse anyone here. I'm simply not amused with people going around spreading lies and libel about me. I would think it would benefit the membership of Golden Gate Fieros to question the public persona that their leadership is putting forth. If they want to continue maintaining an adversarial relationship and continue to spread falsehoods and innuendo about me, then that's their choice. Please just don't expect me to be passive about it. It's not in my nature.
Hey Jeffery Stillwell,, glad to see you back and starting trouble. Remember your sweet phone call to me with those threats?
I see you still have not grown up and tossed form the other home you had and disrupted everyones life at. Your red bar is getting close to a lose here again.
Please call your lawyer and stop using PFF's bandwidth for your silly antics. Damn shame some folks never grow up. Rick
I can see how John and Micheal could benefit from a bowl load.
Mary, I'm not trying to amuse anyone here. I'm simply not amused with people going around spreading lies and libel about me. I would think it would benefit the membership of Golden Gate Fieros to question the public persona that their leadership is putting forth. If they want to continue maintaining an adversarial relationship and continue to spread falsehoods and innuendo about me, then that's their choice. Please just don't expect me to be passive about it. It's not in my nature.
1. I attended 2 meetings or events. March 2006, Redwood City _____________________________ Date Where June, 2007, Marina (WestFest) ______________________________ Date Where
15 month seperation between meetings doesn't show much interest.
[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 07-04-2007).]
It's not about requirement, it's about interest. That much time between meetings doesn't show interest in the club. Throwing the accusations and law threats doesn't show interest.
I like how you tried to toss the Health Issues in there for sympathy. JS you really need to look in the mirror to see who is to blame and especially before the red bar gets to high. Good luck in your endeavors as you really need it. Rick
It's not about requirement, it's about interest. That much time between meetings doesn't show interest in the club. Throwing the accusations and law threats doesn't show interest.
Well, the fact that I have to drive 2 hours each way to go to a meeting that are held on weekday nights only has always dampened my enthusiasm a bit.
Seriously though, if I wanted to sue someone, I wouldn't tell them about it. Micheal thought it important enough to push it in my face that he would not consider my application for club membership. I didn't ask. But nevertheless, he felt the forum in general needed to know this. I merely pointed out that by their own website, they are way off base in doing so. If they want to keep out assholes like me, then they need to cover themselves appropriately. I consider it a service.
Come on, Micheal has been implying for the past 2 years that he is putting together a file on me to sue me. Now he's threatening to call the cops on me if I ever show up at a meeting or event (I guess I got a pass at WestFest for some reason) and for some reason he thinks his personal vendetta is enough to get me hauled off to jail. Really, who is huffing on the drama pipe?
quote
Originally posted by Whuffo:
Jeffrey:
Are you really sure you want to do that? (t\"that" being to come down to a meeting to fill out an application)You have been advised numerous times that you are not welcome - you have been warned that you are putting yourself in legal jeopardy by entering upon the private property where our private meetings, events and offices are held. Those warnings have teeth in them - do yourself a favor and stay home.
Let me be more specific so that even you can understand: you've run out of chances. If you show up, you will be turned over to the authorities. You can try that "public property" nonsense on them if you'd like.
It's not negotiable - stay away or go to jail. You have been warned.
