OK, so... Bars are shut down and grocery stores are open. I wonder if anyone has done a study to see if grocery clerks are dying at a higher rate than bartenders. (this is a real question, I'm not trying to be funny)
Comparing what goes on in a grocery store to a bar is... apples and oranges. You've been around, Willie. You well know how some people act after consuming alcohol. Too many people aren't responsible enough to behave themselves after a drink or two. Any/all virus prevention protocols go right out the window.
Comparing what goes on in a grocery store to a bar is... apples and oranges. You've been around, Willie. You well know how some people act after consuming alcohol. Too many people aren't responsible enough to behave themselves after a drink or two. Any/all virus prevention protocols go right out the window.
So, based on that, what is the answer to my question?
Some (in unnamed professions) go to work and meet with the public every day, as they always have. Others (also in unnamed professions) are prevented from plying their trade and instead stay at home. I wonder if those in the first (not further specified) group are infected at a higher rate than those in the second (not further specified) group.
It would save everyone a lot of pointless arguing if you would just say "I don't know"
Ok... "I don't know" what you're trying to trying to accomplish with this line of questioning. Contact tracing clearly shows that COVID-19 infections among people frequenting bars and nightclubs are much higher than among patrons of grocery stores and even restaurants... and this is why bars and nightclubs are now closed and grocery stores and restaurants are currently open (in BC). What else would you like to know?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-27-2020).]
Comparing what goes on in a grocery store to a bar is... apples and oranges. You've been around, Willie. You well know how some people act after consuming alcohol. Too many people aren't responsible enough to behave themselves after a drink or two. Any/all virus prevention protocols go right out the window.
You my friend have never been to a Walmart after dark.
Originally posted by Patrick: Contact tracing clearly shows that COVID-19 infections among people frequenting bars and nightclubs are much higher than among patrons of grocery stores and even restaurants.
What else would you like to know?
Where do you get this information ? Contact tracing is scant to non existent. My wife had Covid. No tracing. I think contact tracing is kind of useless. At most I think it lets others who you have been around get themselves get tested.
Some (not all) places you go want your name and phone number so they have a log of who was there on any given day, and a lot are using the gooby-tits tracing app.
(Hi, my name is Joe Dolche, my number is 867-5309, now shaddupa you face)
Maybe where you are it is... which might help explain why the US is among top three countries in the world with the highest number of COVID-19 infections.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-27-2020).]
So, based on that, what is the answer to my question?
I doubt there is much difference in the 2 profession's casualty rate, tho that isn't why bars are shut down. Bars are shut down because of poor behavior of the customers, that spread infection among themselves, then go out into the rest of the public world and over the next 2-3 weeks, spread it to everyone else they come in close contact with. not to protect the bartenders. Once inside, they throw out any semblance of social distancing (or common sense) and of course probably don't wear a mask any farther than a foot inside the front door.
What I've seen inside grocery stores, social distancing is still very much in effect and way more common than not, as is the wearing of masks.
I doubt there is much difference in the 2 profession's casualty rate, tho that isn't why bars are shut down. Bars are shut down because of poor behavior of the customers, that spread infection among themselves, then go out into the rest of the public world and over the next 2-3 weeks, spread it to everyone else they come in close contact with. not to protect the bartenders. Once inside, they throw out any semblance of social distancing (or common sense) and of course probably don't wear a mask any farther than a foot inside the front door.
What I've seen inside grocery stores, social distancing is still very much in effect and way more common than not, as is the wearing of masks.
I chose bartenders as an example because they are not working (for the most part) and are not exposed to the public, as opposed to grocery workers who are exposed to a broad cross section of the general public in large numbers. Based on that I would expect grocery workers to have an above average infection rate. I know that health care workers a highly susceptible for obvious reasons. I was just wondering about exposure and transmission through various demographic groups, probably because I was just at the grocery store.
I know there is data that breaks it down by age, geographical location, etc, but I can't seem to find any data that breaks it down in such a way that might sate my curiosity.
Texas has about 4,000 contact tracers employed, but they have run into a lot of trouble actually getting information from those who have tested positive, and even more stubbornness from those they are trying to notify that may have been exposed by the contact.
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Let's talk about the issue of trust. When you call people and say, tell me everybody you've had close contact with in the last few days, are they willing to share that information?
Michael Osur: They're willing to tell us about their family contacts, who lives in the house. But they're not willing to share their friends, who they saw, the stores they went to. And that's been a huge problem because much of our spread has been through those informal barbecues, get-togethers and other places these people have been that we are having a hard time tracking down.
Elya Franciscus: It's the same thing in Harris County. ... They'll say, oh, "I went to a party and there were 30 people, but I'm not going to give you their names." When we try to get into the nitty-gritty ... "what bar did you go to?" they won't tell us because then they're afraid we're going to shut that bar down.
Local Public Health Workers Report Hostile Threats And Fears About Contact Tracing SHOTS - HEALTH NEWS Local Public Health Workers Report Hostile Threats And Fears About Contact Tracing Do you run into that sort of thing, one in 10 calls, half the calls? Can you quantify it?
Franciscus: I would say for Harris County is upwards of 50%. I would say half are very cooperative. Another 25% are semi-cooperative and the other 25% are absolutely unwilling to share anything. There's so much misinformation being put out right now. Our contact tracers are being called names; they're being cursed at, derogatory language is being used, because there [have] been seeds of mistrust thrown into the community. ... They think that the numbers are inflated. We've heard multiple people say that we're getting paid to make up results. So it's so difficult to combat all of this.
Osur: Most of the businesses will be very cooperative. But some of the businesses that hire the food processors or the farm workers, they are completely uncooperative and have told their staff who are positive if they cooperate with us, they'll be terminated. So we have two or three businesses that have had major outbreaks that we can't get into at all. And that's been a huge problem.
morons abound. The original (in April) Tx Dept of Health and Human Services' contract with MTX company was poorly run, suspiciously awarded by the state, and had very little guidance but worked pretty good while the state was in lockdown, but once the state mostly opened back up in Late May, and the case load #s exploded from mid June thru most of July and currently, both MTX and individual county tracers have been deluged with just too many cases to keep up.
Gov Abbott reopened most of the state around May 1 when the total cases were around 31,000, and new daily cases were averaging 1,100. Within weeks those numbers doubled, (July 15, there were 13,000 daily new cases) then tripled and current #s are 927,518 total cases since February and yesterday's new cases were right at 7,000.
I chose bartenders as an example because they are not working (for the most part) and are not exposed to the public, as opposed to grocery workers who are exposed to a broad cross section of the general public in large numbers. Based on that I would expect grocery workers to have an above average infection rate. I know that health care workers a highly susceptible for obvious reasons. I was just wondering about exposure and transmission through various demographic groups, probably because I was just at the grocery store.
I know there is data that breaks it down by age, geographical location, etc, but I can't seem to find any data that breaks it down in such a way that might sate my curiosity.
The 3 grocery stores I usually frequent, has a very high % of mask wearers. I would estimate over 95% easily. 2 of the 3 stores are mostly self scan checkouts now, with very few cashiers at the checkouts. The ones that are still human operated have the plexiglas barriers up, as do all the pharmacies and even the convenient stores. I know there has been some discuassion whether the barriers are very effective or not, but I haven't really followed it closely.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 10-27-2020).]
As of August, According to the US Dept of Commerce there are 2.7 million grocery workers and at least 130 grocery workers have died from COVID-19 with more than 8,200 testing positive for the virus since March.
United Food and Commercial Workers union said:
"In grocery stores across the country, there have been at least 82 worker deaths and 11,507 workers infected or exposed. April experienced the highest single-month total for grocery worker deaths with 46 supermarket employees killed by COVID-19. May saw the grocery industry’s biggest overall spike in COVID-19 cases with 5,901 new grocery workers infected or exposed.
Everyone in the grocery store wears a mask but I have been in packed restaurants were the staff are the only ones wearing masks. The infection rate among grocery store staff could be an indication of the effectiveness of masks, which seems to be a highly contentious subject.
As of August, According to the US Dept of Commerce there are 2.7 million grocery workers and at least 130 grocery workers have died from COVID-19 with more than 8,200 testing positive for the virus since March.
So it would seem that grocery workers are infected at a rate far below that of the general population. I will guess that the median age of grocery workers is somewhat below that of the general population, so that would account for some of the disparity, but not enough. If the safety protocol is the major contributing factor, that should shed some light on our predicament. Almost everyone goes to the grocery store.
Just pondering....
Oh, and thank you for your help!
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 10-27-2020).]
Originally posted by cliffw: Contact tracing is scant to non existent. My wife had Covid. No tracing. I think contact tracing is kind of useless. At most I think it lets others who you have been around motivate themselves to get tested.
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Originally posted by Patrick: Maybe where you are it is... which might help explain why the US is among top three countries in the world with the highest number of COVID-19 infections.
Explain it in what way, ? Think about it beyond you scare provider news information.
I will say it again. My wife had Covid. I never got it and I never wore a mask around her. The same with another in our family unit.
So tell me, how does contract testing save lives ?
Wait a minute, as almost usual, you didn't answer my original question.
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Originally posted by cliffw: Where do you get this information ?
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Originally posted by Patrick: Contact tracing clearly shows that COVID-19 infections among people frequenting bars and nightclubs are much higher than among patrons of grocery stores and even restaurants.
Originally posted by cliffw: <SNIP> I will say it again. My wife had Covid. I never got it and I never wore a mask around her. The same with another in our family unit. <SNIP>
So... if that's how cliffw is thinking about this, is it reasonable to think that cliffw has concluded, on the basis of his personal experience, that Covid-19 is not a contagious condition or disease?
Just the other day, when former President Obama was speaking on behalf of the Biden Harris campaign, he cited the example of South Korea, and compared South Korea to the United States:
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South Korea had its first case of COVID at the same time, the same week as the United States. Do you know that their per capita death rate is just 1.3% of what ours is? Think about that statistic. I’ve given this statistic a couple of times and people haven’t really focused on it. The number of people in Korea who have died of COVID per capita is less than 1.5% [of] what our death rate is.
South Korea = testing and contact tracing. South Korea = what Dr Fauci and so many other credentialed medical and public health professionals are preaching.
But I really wanted to step in here for another reason. To offer yet another of my innumerable "reads." This new article from NBC News = a Pandemic Pondering, so it fits right in.
"Scientists debate how much to lower the bar on Covid-19 vaccine potential"
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Ongoing clinical trials are primarily designed to show whether Covid-19 vaccine candidates prevent any symptoms of the disease — which could be as minor as a sore throat or a cough. But the trials, which will study 30,000 to 60,000 volunteers, will be too brief and too small to prove that the vaccines will prevent what people fear most — being hospitalized or dying — by the time the first vaccine makers file for emergency use authorization, which is expected to occur later this year, Haseltine said.
That's the somewhat paradoxical aspect of the discussion. The most serious consequences, on a case by case basis, are very uncommon, compared to the total number of cases. But the total number of cases is already large and potentially even much larger, compared to the 330 million or so people of the United States. (That's why Covid is such a "monster.") In other words, "You're going to need a BIGGER vaccine trial."
One argument that some credentialed experts are advancing is an extrapolation from previous vaccine work (measles vaccines, in particular) that if a Covid-19 vaccine candidate is shown to prevent minor or asymptomatic cases, it likely will prove to be effective in preventing the more serious cases, hospitalizations and deaths from Covid. That would be the anticipated conclusion, in retrospect, from reviews of the vaccine's performance based on data that will only be available after millions of people have received the vaccine.
The report is from Liz Szabo and JoNel Aleccia and emanates from Kaiser Health News. I have it here in NBC News online, dated October 28, 2020. Today. https://www.nbcnews.com/hea...e-potential-n1244956
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 10-28-2020).]
OK, so... Bars are shut down and grocery stores are open. I wonder if anyone has done a study to see if grocery clerks are dying at a higher rate than bartenders. (this is a real question, I'm not trying to be funny)
I was recently in a bar, I don't do that very often but, we got rained out and it was a place to get something to eat. There was a live band with several folks dancing and having a good time. The food was pretty good. The problem was, the music was so loud, you had to be close to each other just to be heard. That was true of when my friends and I spoke to each other and when we ordered from a very attractive waitress. From my observations, only the three people I was with were ever wearing masks.
I don't go to the grocery store very often but, when I do, just about everyone is wearing a mask.
Personally, I consider a mask just like an engine oil filter. That oil filter doesn't catch all of the contaminates but, it catches some, (both incoming and out going). For the sake of this debate, let's say that filter catches 50% of the contaminates. Makes sense to me that (in general terms) your engine is getting 50% less contaminates and thusly, reduced engine wear. Well, that mask is simply filtering the air we breath (both in and out). It is reducing the amount of virus that might get into and out of your body. Combine that "filter" with social distancing and sanitary hand washing, you are reducing your chances of sharing or contracting COVID 19. Is it 100% effective, no. Unless you're wearing a positive pressure air supply mask with eye protection, you still run a risk. Would you run that engine without an oil filter?
Being the person that I am, I'm pretty good about social distancing. I don't like wearing a mask either but do so as required whether in a grocery store or a bar.
------------------ Rams Intelligent people speak because they have something to say, fools speak because they have to say something. Consider that before telling anyone what's on your mind.
My wife told me to grow up. I told her to get out of my fort!
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 10-28-2020).]
The problem was, the music was so loud, you had to be close to each other just to be heard.
You bring up a very good point. Combine that with alcohol which helps to disinhibit people, and you've now got "chummy" people talking up a storm within close confines. A recipe for disaster in this COVID-19 era.
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Originally posted by Patrick:
Contact tracing clearly shows that COVID-19 infections among people frequenting bars and nightclubs are much higher than among patrons of grocery stores and even restaurants... and this is why bars and nightclubs are now closed and grocery stores and restaurants are currently open (in BC).
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-28-2020).]
Originally posted by cliffw: I think you are making it up !
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Originally posted by Patrick: Of course... it's all a big lie. The world has conspired to try and fool cliffw... but he's just too damn clever to fall for it.
Of course ... you still did not answer the question.
Personally, I just dont wanna deal with the hasel and fights anymore. The past month ("second wave") I find I am ordering online a lot more and when I do go shopping I combine stops to minimize "problem time" (Where in the summer I might go to the drug store, grocery store, clothing store, department store and hardware store on a day out-trip (once very 2 weeks) I now hit walmart to get the bulk in one stop and get the rest delivered. Dont care if it costs a few bucks more or comes from Cheena and not locally...I just aint dealing with the people over it anymore.
I will say it again. My wife had Covid. I never got it and I never wore a mask around her. The same with another in our family unit. I think you are making it up !
Well, when she self isolates, and family members for the most part stay away from her, she doesn't have to wear a mask all the time.
Originally posted by cliffw:Self restricted to our bedroom. Yes, I am sleeping on the couch, . I stick my head in the room once in a while for a quick 'visit' / chat, and she scolds me. She calls me and says she misses me. We are burning up our phones talking.
I feel you still do not understand the importance or even the function of wearing a mask. I am not one bit surprised that neither you nor the other family member got it, as your wife did what she was supposed to..by your own account, she stayed away from you 2 as much as possiblke and you stayed away from her.
Masks have, for over a century, been worn by nurses and docttors and especially surgeons. This proven protocol is to help prevent the spread of disease between patients by those medical people. The surgeon does not wear the mask, gown, and gloves to protect himself ..he wears it to prevent HIM from transmitting pathogens TO the patient. The covid patient would either wear a mask to prevent them from spreading contagion to others, or isolate themselves from others. Others (including general public) even if asymptomatic, wear a mask to help prevent them from unknowingly spread the virus to others. (this has all been explained numerous times, and I really don't know why I bother doing it yet again) Masks only very minimally protect the wearer from Covid, depending what type mask they have.
Would that convince you? Of course not. I don't know why Don/maryjane continues to try and convince you of anything. He's apparently much more forgiving and patient than I am!
Regarding the bars and restrictions on hours or # of customers allowed...
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“We want to let the bars earn a living, but we have to tell them how to run their business in a lower-risk fashion,” says Schaffner. Two fewer hours of a bar being open, in other words, are two fewer hours that coronavirus can spread. Not to mention, the longer that a bar stays open, the riskier things become. “The sense is that the later you’re there, the more casual your behavior is likely to be,” he says.
Yahoo Life Medical Contributor Dr. Dara Kass elaborates. “What do people do at night that they don’t do during the day? They drink. What happens when you drink? Well, first of all, your mask is off; second of all, you behave less responsibly,” says Kass. “People don’t generally drink at 9 in the morning.”
(it's always 5pm somewhere... )
But the whole issue is responsibility. Some take it more seriously than others.
Topic Closed
? Think about it beyond you scare provider news information.
