Per Cliff Pennock's advice, starting this thread over. Please keep it civil
The Democrats are all for mail in ballots, they want it for this election on November 3rd.
Some states already do a "mail in ballot" and I have no issue with it with a few exceptions.
I am not in favor of a mass "mail in ballot" vote this election because, some states don't already have a system in place and we all know how things that are rushed with the government tend to be SNAFU. I have no problem if we do this in two years or four years but, I don't want to screw up this election regardless of who wins. But, to rush such a change in with this short lead time is just asking for issues.
Anyone that feels they can't go vote in person is very welcomed to request an Absentee Ballot and vote for whomever they wish. I don't trust certain areas (yes, they are in blue states) to do an honest election.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-03-2020).]
The potential for fraud is extremely high. It would take some concerted effort to hide a large amount of it though. Hopefully there are enough honest people in the world to report it if they see it. The bigger threat is this might be another "hanging chad" moment for either side. If the walk-in vote is dramatically different than the mail-in vote then it's off to the courts.
The potential for fraud is extremely high. It would take some concerted effort to hide a large amount of it though. Hopefully there are enough honest people in the world to report it if they see it. The bigger threat is this might be another "hanging chad" moment for either side. If the walk-in vote is dramatically different than the mail-in vote then it's off to the courts.
Precisely what this country needs to avoid.
I fully agree with the opportunity for vote fraud. While anything is possible, I've only heard of voter fraud in blue states. I might try it myself but, I don't look good in Prison Orange.
1/2 Hey Joshua, it's Kathleen w/ the Michigan Dems! The best way to move our country forward is to elect Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Gary Peters, and Democrats
quote
2/2 running up and down the ballot by signing up to vote by mail. Will you commit to vote by mail this year?
I can see them pushing for their people, but why push for how the vote is cast?
Arizona has been doing mail in ballots and early voting for over a decade. It took nearly a month to get the final count in 2018. As more ballots slowly materialized throughout the month of November, more Republicans fell.
Since we are starting this over. Democrats Have Been Trying To Commit Mail-In Ballot Fraud For Over 150 Years
Traveling to Baltimore in the fall of 1864, Orville Wood had no way of knowing he would soon uncover the most elaborate election conspiracy in America's brief history.
Wood was a merchant from Clinton County in the most northeastern corner of New York. As a supporter of President Abraham Lincoln, he was tasked with visiting troops from his hometown to "look after the local ticket."
New York legislators had only established the state's mail-in voting system in April with the intent of ensuring the suffrage of White troops battling the Confederate Army.
The results of the 1864 elections would heavily affect the outcome of the war. Lincoln and his supporters in the National Union Party sought to continue the war and defeat the Confederacy outright. Meanwhile antiwar Democrats, also referred to as Copperheads, looked for an immediate compromise with the Confederate leaders and the end of the abolition movement.
Troops from New York were allowed to authorize individuals back home to cast a vote on their behalf. Along with their mail-in ballots, troops would assign their power of attorney on slips that required four signatures: the voter's, the person authorized as a recipient, a witness to the signed affidavit and a fellow officer. These documents would be sealed in an envelope and shipped back home to be counted in the final vote. This was the process that Orville Wood intended to uphold, he would testify in court later. He quickly found out what a challenge that would be.
Wood arrived at Fort McHenry in Baltimore to visit with the 91st New York Regiment. There, an Army captain suggested that there had been some "checker playing" when it came to the gathering of soldiers' mail-in ballots. These suspicions of fraud were echoed when Wood visited wounded men at the Newton University Hospital. The rumors of wrongdoing led Wood to the office of Moses Ferry in Baltimore.
Ferry had been selected by New York Gov. Horatio Seymour to help oversee the voting process for New York's enlisted men. Seymour had vetoed the initial bill to establish mail-in voting and would go on to run against Ulysses S. Grant in the 1868 presidential election.
Wood masked his suspicions as he entered Ferry's office, portraying himself as a strong supporter of Lincoln's opponent, George McClellan. This was enough to gain Ferry's trust, he testified later.
Ferry told Wood that the votes from New York's 91st Regiment had already been tallied: 400 for McClellan and 11 for Lincoln.
Wood returned to the office later and, following Ferry's instructions, began forging signatures of the 16th New York Cavalry. Meanwhile, a clerk sat across the room signing ballots from the roster of names Wood had brought with him from home. Wood asked to personally deliver these fraudulent ballots, but Ferry said they would have to receive final approval from his colleague in Washington - Edward Donahue Jr.
Donahue soon arrived in Baltimore and met with Wood. It was revealed during this conversation that around 20 co-conspirators were already at work in D.C. to aid in the plot to deliver votes to McClellan. The following day Wood watched as Donahue and his crew formed a sort of assembly line, passing blank papers along to one another to be signed with the names of active enlisted men, wounded and dead soldiers, and officers who never existed.
In addition to operations in D.C. and Baltimore, the scheme extended back to New York. Donahue had received rosters of soldiers from military officials and members of law enforcement. A letter from Gen. J.A. Ferrell read, "Inclosed in this package you will find tickets, also a list of names of the actual residents of Columbia County, now members of the 128th Regiment. With my best wishes for your success."
A letter from Albany Sheriff H. Cromdell offered to send additional men to assist in Baltimore. The letter read, "All is well here, and we are confident of complete success. It is unnecessary to say that all here have entire confidence in your skill and abetting, and hope you like your help."
Also discovered in Ferry's office was a list of around 400 names belonging to sick and wounded soldiers under treatment at a nearby hospital. In reference to the roster, Ferry joked, "Dead or alive, they all had cast a good vote."
Ferry, Donahue, and their fellow conspirators found humor in their work. One accomplice mocked the outcry he expected from abolitionist newspapers following the corruption of the election. The men bragged about their past successes in fixing local elections back home.
Together, the men had shipped crates of fraudulent votes back to New York. But their scheme was over. Wood reported the operation to authorities. Ferry's office was searched, and on the morning of Oct. 27, 1864 - less than two weeks before the election - he and Donahue stood trial before a military commission.
Ferry offered a full confession that same day, even offering up the names of others involved in the scheme. Donahue proved more of a challenge.
Following the first day of the trial, a reporter for the New York Times wrote, "The honest electors of the state of New York have escaped an extensive and fearful fraud, a fraud in keeping with the proclivities of the party in whose behalf it was initiated, but one that, if unexposed might have subverted the honest will of the people and left the state and the nation at the mercy of those who would make peace with rebellion and fellowship with traitors."
Arrests in New York and Washington continued to mount as Donahue returned to trial. Following Wood's damning testimony and supporting evidence, Donahue begged for mercy from the court. He was a young man, newly married, with no previous record. He visibly wilted as he realized the weight of his current situation, no longer expressing the defiance with which he had entered the proceedings.
The judge advocate addressed the tribunal, saying that Donahue had engaged in one of the most gigantic frauds ever attempted in America - "a fraud which, if it shall be successful, will, in my opinion, have produced a disruption of our entire country, and our war for the preservation of the Union will be practically at an end and futile."
In the months following Lincoln's victory - he won 221 electoral votes to McClellan's 21 - anti-abolitionist newspapers attacked his legitimacy, calling the trial another aspect of a conspiracy conducted by the president to ensure his reelection.
The commission that oversaw Ferry and Donahue's trial recommended life in prison for the two men who sought to corrupt the election by mail. The president, who would soon be slain, approved.
In person - OK Picture ID - OK on Election Day - OK Absentee - OK
No mail-in except Absentee No Early Voting - that is what Absentee is for No Late Voting - ya snooze, ya looze
The Dems proposal reeks of the opportunity for deception.
Not a lot of difference between absentee voting and mail-in ballot. Absentee in your state may be returned to the clerk's office by several means.
quote
After receiving your absent voter ballot, you have until 8 p.m. on election day to complete the ballot and return it to the clerk's office. Your ballot will not be counted unless your signature is on the return envelope and matches your signature on file. If you received assistance voting the ballot, then the signature of the person who helped you must also be on the return envelope. Only you, a family member or person residing in your household, a mail carrier, or election official is authorized to deliver your signed absent voter ballot to your clerk's office.
Your state (like mine) also already offers 'early voting'.
quote
Vote early Michigan voters can also vote before Election Day through a process called absentee in-person voting. The period for absentee in-person voting runs from Monday, September 21, 2020 to Monday, November 2, 2020, but dates and hours may vary based on where you live.
Texas:
quote
Q. Can anybody vote early by mail (also referred to as “absentee voting”)? A. Only specific reasons entitle a registered voter to vote early by mail (no longer called absentee voting). You may request a ballot by mail if you:
will be away from your county on Election Day and during the hours that early voting is conducted; are sick or disabled; are 65 years of age or older on Election Day; or are confined in jail.
Being over 65, I qualify to vote early and by mail. I cannot in good conscience deny others that same option.
As I've already stated, if a state has such a system in place, so be it. That's that state's option. Where I have a problem is with the short time states have to put such a system in place if they are not already using such a system. We've all seen how government can take on tasks they are not equipped to handle and then screw the pooch.
Originally posted by blackrams: ...I don't look good in Prison Orange.
Orange man bad !
quote
Originally posted by Hudini: The potential for fraud is extremely high. It would take some concerted effort to hide a large amount of it though.
To hide ? How could it even be detected ? For generations the United States has been sending poll watchers to third world countries to try to detect ballot fraud, to ensure fair elections.
Even if fraud was not a concern, what about the multitude of rejected ballots that seem to happen for what ever reason. Do they come back and ask the voter for clarification ?
quote
Originally posted by Hudini: Hopefully there are enough honest people in the world to report it if they see it.
How can anybody see it ? Only God is omnipresent. The dishonest people will not report it.
quote
Originally posted by maryjane: Being over 65, I qualify to vote early and by mail. I cannot in good conscience deny others that same option.
Apples and oranges. From your link ...
quote
You may request a ballot by mail if you:
This vote by mail hoop la is not for requested ballots.
How else can one get a ballot if they do not request one?
Is there a real difference between: if I request a ballot, get it, fill it out and mail it in or if the county precinct in which I vote mails me one on it's own and I fill it out and mail it in?
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 09-04-2020).]
How else can one get a ballot if they do not request one?
Is there a real difference between: if I request a ballot, get it, fill it out and mail it in or if the county precinct in which I vote mails me one on it's own and I fill it out and mail it in?
There is the problem MJ. The state sends out a ballot to everyone on the voter rolls without being asked. And there is no way to check who signed it and sent it back. Mail-in and Absentee are two totally different animals. I just sent in my Absentee request because 'm stuck here in China. I had to show all kinds of ID with my signed application. Mail-in does not require this effort.
There is the problem MJ. The state sends out a ballot to everyone on the voter rolls without being asked. And there is no way to check who signed it and sent it back. Mail-in and Absentee are two totally different animals. I just sent in my Absentee request because 'm stuck here in China. I had to show all kinds of ID with my signed application. Mail-in does not require this effort.
That is precisely the issue, there is no way for the state to verify who actually voted. I was told that vote counters were going to try to verify signatures from the time that each voter initially registered to the signature on the ballot. First, my signature might be similar but, I doubt that state will hire folks trained as Graphologist.. At least with in person voting, I have to show some form of ID or billing statement.
Being honest, too many times more than 100% of registered voted in some elections, many of those were deceased voters. Such instances always come up in Blue states. The old saying about smoke and fire seems applicable.
I have absolutely no issue with an Absentee Ballot, if one has sufficient reasons a state allows, that's good enough for me. There is plenty of time prior to Nov. 3rd to request, receive and send back an Absentee Ballot. Get it done.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-04-2020).]
And red states and purple states. Nothing is 100% foolproof and it never has been, nor will it ever be. All the conspiracy theories and those that latch on to them in both this issue and covid19 is an amazing event considering this nation is supposedly a relatively mature and educated peoples Hudini nailed it back near the beginning.
quote
It would take some concerted effort to hide a large amount of it though.
Next thing ya know, someone will claim the other side is engaged in some bizarre cult of child abuse in the back rooms of a Washington DC pizza joint..oh..wait.
Or that man has never landed on the moon...oh wait.
Or that Covid19 is a complete fraud and doesn't really exist..oh wait.
Or that Trump stole the election with help from the Russians..oh wait.
Or that Covid19 is caused by 5G..oh wait.
Or that Covid19 is 'just the flu'..oh wait.
Or that 94% of of the Covid deaths weren't really caused by Covid19..oh wait.
Or that the most recent actor to play in a Batman movie got it from playing with bats in a movie set batcave..oh wait.
Or that there really is a 100% effective cure for all cancers but "big pharma' bought it up decades ago and is hiding it...oh wait.
Or that 'big oil' bought up the rights to a carburetor that made an engine get 300MPG..oh wait.
That aliens capable of traveling interstellar space at or above light speed are coming here just to gut a few cows..oh wait.
The gullibility of certain demographics never ceases to amaze me.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 09-04-2020).]
Those people (individuals and/or groups) that are prone to believe and spread "news facts' that are neither news nor facts while presenting little or no proof that backs up their claims.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 09-04-2020).]
I can see them pushing for their people, but why push for how the vote is cast?
From "motor voter laws" to "same day registration & voting" to ballot harvesting to mail in balloting, only ONE political party always seems to push for voting methods than make the process LESS secure rather than more.
WHY does anyone suppose that is?
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 09-04-2020).]
The "previously undiscovered" boxes of ballots are the "hanging chads" of mail-in and early voting. They were found in cars and closets here for weeks after the 2018 elections.
Also, unplanned early voting locations were set up in the last few days before the elections and only some select neighborhoods were informed.
The investigations are still dragging on, quietly.
Yeah, sometimes I am a conspiracy theorist and I am not ashamed to admit it. I don't have to hear it on the radio to know when it is raining.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 09-04-2020).]
Hudini was correct, it would take a huge effort. Which is precisely the push going on now. This has been attempted previously by the same party in many big cities and now wants to do it nation wide. Denying the potential threat only enhances the chances of it occurring. Put a system in place that is thought out and not rushed so that we can all agree it was a fair election regardless of who wins. The last thing we need is another court challenged election. Which is precisely where we're headed. This will not end well for us as a nation.
The last thing we need is another court challenged election. Which is precisely where we're headed. This will not end well for us as a nation.
Rams
I suspect that this is why Hillary has counselled Biden not to concede and why Bloomberg is talking about the "red mirage". Maybe it makes me a crazy conspiracy guy, but I have strong suspicions.
I suspect that this is why Hillary has counselled Biden not to concede and why Bloomberg is talking about the "red mirage". Maybe it makes me a crazy conspiracy guy, but I have strong suspicions.
HRC should have been put in jail a long time ago but, that's not the issue here.
Lots of folks have some very strong feelings but, I don't think anyone would deny that there will be votes mailed in that are not verified. It could be from Red or Blue states but, we all know who is pushing for mail in votes.
No one has enlightened me as to why Absentee Votes will not suffice for this election in states that don't already have a mail in system. It's actually a pretty simple way to vote, I've done it and if I can get it done, it can be done.
Hudini was correct, it would take a huge effort. Which is precisely the push going on now. This has been attempted previously by the same party in many big cities and now wants to do it nation wide. Denying the potential threat only enhances the chances of it occurring. Put a system in place that is thought out and not rushed so that we can all agree it was a fair election regardless of who wins. The last thing we need is another court challenged election. Which is precisely where we're headed. This will not end well for us as a nation.
A former assistant district attorney who was involved in a 2017 investigation into suspected Mail-In Voter fraud in Dallas County has just called out U.S. Attorney General William Barr for misrepresenting the facts of the case.
"No, a Texas man was not indicted for filling out 1,700 mail-in ballots, despite what Attorney General William Barr said"
quote
The case at issue stems from a 2017 investigation into suspected mail-in voter fraud in Dallas County.
quote
Kerri Kupec, a [U.S.] Justice Department spokeswoman, said in a statement: “Prior to his interview, the Attorney General [William Barr] was provided a memo prepared within the Department that contained an inaccurate summary about the case which he relied upon when using the case as an example.”
MSNBC play-by-play broadcaster Ari Melber and color commentator and former U.S. federal prosecutor John Flannery have the call. The YouTube video concierge picks up the action at 22 minutes and 50 seconds after the start of the broadcast. https://youtu.be/Ij7_MDZTMg0?t=1370
With all of the focus on Mail-In Ballots from Trump World, I have to wonder what might be about to go down in terms of In Person voting on November 3, 2020. Is it going to be (un)surprisingly difficult for voters in certain neighborhoods to cast their vote in person without undertaking something of an epic travel journey to get to a voting station?
Just something that the Trump supporters here might want to think about.
I will be transparent, in that I cannot say that I have researched this topic in any depth.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 09-05-2020).]
Twenty-eight-year-old Miguel Hernandez was eventually found guilty in the investigation for forging a voter's signature on a mail-in ballot he returned. Chatham described Hernandez as the "fall guy" in the scam, being paid by a still-unknown consultant to contact individuals who had received mail-in ballots and return them so they could potentially be tampered with.
"He violated the law but not for voting, it was for procuring mail-in ballots under false pretenses," Chatham said. "The other thing that Barr got very wrong about the case is that we knew about this thing before it even happened, and prevented any potentially fraudulent ballots from being cast."
"It was a tremendous success story for the office," Chatham added.
William Barr was so emphatic with his voice and body language about this Mail-In Voter fraud investigation (for a city council election), but he did not provide an accurate summary of the case.
AG Barr, hardly a "Clarence Darrow" in terms of swaying my opinion, with that fairly lame attempt (from Barr) at making his case against Mail-In Ballots.
I understand your point and your position (I think). But knowing the huge potential for voter fraud and what's at stake, I can only voice my opinion on the best course of action. I still have yet to be shown why a registered US Citizen can't vote via Absentee Ballot. Explain to me why the Democrats (of which I am one) want to force the mail in ballot issue now with so little time for states that do not have that system in place to force the issue.
Again, I'll state that I have no issues with putting a nation wide mail in system in place (obviously under the control of each state in that states control elections for the most part) but, do it with some thought and deliberation. Put it in place and test the waters during primaries and off year elections to get it right and figure out a way to verify the vote.
Next thing ya know, someone will claim the other side is engaged in some bizarre cult of child abuse in the back rooms of a Washington DC pizza joint..oh..wait.
Or that man has never landed on the moon...oh wait.
Or that Covid19 is a complete fraud and doesn't really exist..oh wait.
Or that Trump stole the election with help from the Russians..oh wait.
Or that Covid19 is caused by 5G..oh wait.
Or that Covid19 is 'just the flu'..oh wait.
Or that 94% of of the Covid deaths weren't really caused by Covid19..oh wait.
Or that the most recent actor to play in a Batman movie got it from playing with bats in a movie set batcave..oh wait.
Or that there really is a 100% effective cure for all cancers but "big pharma' bought it up decades ago and is hiding it...oh wait.
Or that 'big oil' bought up the rights to a carburetor that made an engine get 300MPG..oh wait.
That aliens capable of traveling interstellar space at or above light speed are coming here just to gut a few cows..oh wait.
The gullibility of certain demographics never ceases to amaze me.
Exactly. Wanting something to be true don’t make it so. Aside from falsely inflating the ego, Inventing enemies is a useless endeavor.
It seems some are not complete without unseen lurking shadows around every corner.
EDIT: My favorite phrase these days is “The potental for...” being used as if the result is already a given.
Everything has “potential”. It ain’t what it is until it’s what it is.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 09-05-2020).]
With the huge numbers of votes expected, I can easily see truck loads of votes being put in all kinds of places since they are to be counted on election day (hopefully, all will get counted) in most states. Yeah, this should work out real well. Hopefully we'll have a full accounting by Jan 20th of next year regardless of who is determined to be the winner. Yeah, this is going to be one huge Cluster ****.
According to NBC Today Show this morning (a very liberal show), it took NY 42 days to get all it's votes counted. Other states were also stated but, I didn't get them all down. Is timely counting important, I guess that depends on your perspective. Local races are also affected by this. Meet the Press also brought up the issue of those who vote by mail and then go vote in person. Yes, there are limits on how many times you can vote and there are (supposedly) measures in place to catch such fraud but, such double checks will most surely slow the end results. Absentee ballots included, just adds to the problem but, that's been an acceptable way to vote when you can't get to the voting booth. Pandora's Box is about to be opened and no one can say how this will end. It's so easy to go vote in person, why not. Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-06-2020).]
My wife and I moved from Massachusetts in 1976, living in Rhode Island for a couple of years before moving to Georgia. We voted in both states when we lived in them.
We have been regular voters since returning to Georgia. My wife passed in 2018. Yesterday, her email that is still in use because it is tagged to several accounts, received a notice for her to request her mail-in ballot for Massachusetts. We didn't even have email or internet in those days we lived there.
My tabulation of Judicial Watch’s state-by-state results yielded 462 counties where the registration rate exceeded 100 percent. There were 3,551,760 more people registered to vote than adult U.S. citizens who inhabit these counties.
“That’s enough over-registered voters to populate a ghost-state about the size of Connecticut,” Judicial Watch attorney Robert Popper told me.
quote
Washington’s Clark County is worrisome, given its 154 percent registration rate. This includes 166,811 ghost voters. Georgia’s Fulton County seems less nettlesome at 108 percent registration, except for the number of Greater Atlantans, 53,172, who compose that figure.
But California’s San Diego County earns the enchilada grande. Its 138 percent registration translates into 810,966 ghost voters. Los Angeles County’s 112 percent rate equals 707,475 over-registrations.
Of course some will say that there have been no convictions, therefore no fraud. Again, I guess that makes me a crazy conspiracy theorist.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 09-06-2020).]
