There is now more growing evidence that Covid19 virus IS air transmittable.
Not only could people pass the virus directly from one to another in the little droplets that we all spray to one degree or another when we talk, laugh or sing; but those little droplets also go up into the air where, Milton says, they can float around for at least some time. Milton, a professor of environmental health at the University of Maryland who studies how viruses are transmitted, has helped lead a group of 239 scientists who wrote an open letter to appeal for better recognition of the potential airborne transmission of coronavirus.
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KEY POINTS More scientists argue SARS-CoV-2 can be spread by small droplets or aerosols WHO is unconvinced COVID-19 is airborne "We consider airborne transmission as possible but certainly not supported by solid or even clear evidence," WHO says
The above statement is poorly worded in my opinion. It's always been accepted that it can be and is spread by aerosols and droplets.
There is now more growing evidence that Covid19 virus IS air transmittable.
Not only could people pass the virus directly from one to another in the little droplets that we all spray to one degree or another when we talk, laugh or sing; but those little droplets also go up into the air where, Milton says, they can float around for at least some time. Milton, a professor of environmental health at the University of Maryland who studies how viruses are transmitted, has helped lead a group of 239 scientists who wrote an open letter to appeal for better recognition of the potential airborne transmission of coronavirus.
The above statement is poorly worded in my opinion. It's always been accepted that it can be and is spread by aerosols and droplets.
By the way, I just looked at my N95 masks that I have, the valve is for the exhale. So when I breath out, it doesn't filter. It only filters when I breath in.
Almost everyone I've been seeing today (since I've started noticing) are wearing masks that have the exhale valve.
By the way, I just looked at my N95 masks that I have, the valve is for the exhale. So when I breath out, it doesn't filter. It only filters when I breath in.
Almost everyone I've been seeing today (since I've started noticing) are wearing masks that have the exhale valve.
I know nothing about masks, diseases, etc. But if they have been claiming that the masks are worn to protect others, and they work as you have described, the whole thing has been a waste of time and money. Now I know less than nothing.
I know nothing about masks, diseases, etc. But if they have been claiming that the masks are worn to protect others, and they work as you have described, the whole thing has been a waste of time and money. Now I know less than nothing.
IF...IF the report that the virus is airborne is correct that means that masks, and cloth masks especially, are completely worthless.
The size of the COV19 virus is 0.05 µm
The pore size of the average cloth mask is 400 µm.
The pore size of the average paper mask is 80 µm.
The pore size of an N95 mask is 0.2 µm.
An airborne virus is going to go through all of those masks like steam through a screen door, BOTH EXHALED AND INHALED.
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Originally posted by maryjane:
One of the big problems is (and has always been) that we knew and still know very little about this pathogen and there is so little agreement between different agencies, but it does seem WHO has been behind the curve almost from the beginning..
The very first of the SEVEN known corona virii that can infect humans, HCoV-229E, was identified in 1965
It also originates in bats and is transferrable to humans.
Common human coronaviruses:
1.229E (alpha coronavirus) 1965 2.NL63 (alpha coronavirus) 2004 3.OC43 (beta coronavirus) 2000 4.HKU1 (beta coronavirus) 2005 5.MERS-CoV (the beta coronavirus that causes Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, or MERS) 2012 6.SARS-CoV (the beta coronavirus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS) 2017 7.SARS-CoV-2 (the novel coronavirus that causes coronavirus disease 2019, or COVID-19) 2019
To date there are ZERO vaccines for any of them.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-06-2020).]
I know nothing about masks, diseases, etc. But if they have been claiming that the masks are worn to protect others, and they work as you have described, the whole thing has been a waste of time and money. Now I know less than nothing.
I don't think so, at least not at first.
The masks and stuff like what MJ's wife and others are making at home... they obviously don't filter out much, but do serve to eliminate mucous spray, which is the goal.
But most people have complained about not being able to breath properly and / or it's uncomfortable, so... entrepreneurs are here to fix that. Problem is... only way to make a mask breath easier is with a valve. It totally defeats the purpose of why everyone is being forced to wear a mask, but it seems that's what everyone is doing, at least around here. Most of the people at work and those I see in shopping plazas and stuff, they all have the little valve on the side of the mask. Lol. I'm just ready for things to return to normal, and I still think the best solution is for elderly and those with preexisting conditions to self-quarantine. I think everything we've done here this year will go far to preparing us for future viruses and outbreaks... what works and what doesn't.
Good news is... the death rate for COVID has plummetted, even though the number of cases has skyrocketted. I'm not sure if that means people are becoming immune to it easier, or what... but everyone is saying this is a good sign.
By the way, I just looked at my N95 masks that I have, the valve is for the exhale. So when I breath out, it doesn't filter. It only filters when I breath in.
Almost everyone I've been seeing today (since I've started noticing) are wearing masks that have the exhale valve.
What has the public been advised to wear down there by their health authorities?
Here in BC, it's been made quite clear at official websites that there's a difference between Industrial and Medical N95 masks. We've been instructed not to wear N95 masks which have valves in them.
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Industrial N95 respirators
- Used to protect workers from inhaling dust, fumes, and hazardous aerosols. - Available in hardware stores. - These masks are not recommended to prevent COVID-19 because if they have a valve and you cough/sneeze, you may spread a stream of germs through the valve.
It only stands to reason that a mask with an outlet valve doesn't do squat in regards to protecting others!
What has the public been advised to wear down there by their health authorities?
Here in BC, it's been made quite clear at official websites that there's a difference between Industrial and Medical N95 masks. We've been instructed not to wear N95 masks which have valves in them.
It only stands to reason that a mask with an outlet valve doesn't do squat in regards to protecting others!
I've not seen anything so clear-cut. I'm sure if I looked really hard, I'd probably see mention of what and what not to wear in some government issued statement, but there's really nothing of the sort here. I assume Canada is operated similarly to the United States, at least in the attempt to be a Republic rather than a single large Democracy (you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong).
The Federal government can issue recommendations and such through the CDC, but the states have the autonomy to do as they please. Some states do not require face masks, others do. In the states that have, I've not seen anything mentioned.
Down here in San Antonio, I don't think anyone really cares... it's like when you drive your Cadillac Escalade or Lincoln Navigator to Starbucks (which is just a couple miles from your house) to buy a chilled Frapalapachino Quinoa-Surprise, and then to ask for the large plastic sippy-cup lid instead of the smaller plastic straw because you're trying to help the environment. Or my family member who says she doesn't have to recycle because she's vegan.
The valve masks are pretty much all that I'm seeing around town and at work. I'd honestly assume that either no one has any clue, or they don't care either way. I don't like anything that smells or feels like it's infringing on liberty... so you know my stance.
I'm kinda that way too, about dead people and how they smell.
Nothing infringes upon one's liberty quite like death. It's the one surefire way of hitting the trifecta of tyranny. Dead folks have no life, no liberty, and they sure aren't pursuing happiness (not on this Earth anyway)
I'm kinda that way too, about dead people and how they smell.
Nothing infringes upon one's liberty quite like death. It's the one surefire way of hitting the trifecta of tyranny. Dead folks have no life, no liberty, and they sure aren't pursuing happiness (not on this Earth anyway)
Whatever. I've already said a wear a mask in every place that I'm supposed to, which right now is any time I'm out in public. I still think they're completely stupid.
I'd probably see mention of what and what not to wear in some government issued statement, but there's really nothing of the sort here. I assume Canada is operated similarly to the United States, at least in the attempt to be a Republic rather than a single large Democracy.
In Canada, each province has their own health authority. I'm sure there's plenty of information shared among them, but each province sets their own standards.
BC was one of the earliest places in North America to experience deaths from COVID-19, so the authorities here cracked down pretty hard. It's paid off very well though, as we're doing just fine now.
You might've heard how Vancouver was on the short list for one of the two NHL "hub-cities" (to resume the season and playoffs), but because our health authority refused to acquiesce to the NHL's pressure to bend the health restrictions, Vancouver was crossed off the list. I'm very much a hockey fan, but I'm not disappointed that hundreds of potentially infected players, coaches and trainers won't be arriving in town!
Antibody tests could significantly underestimate the number of novel coronavirus infections.
By Allysia Finley July 6, 2020 6:57 pm ET
Some early assumptions about Covid-19 no longer add up—and that could be good news for the future progress of the virus. There are reasons to think the novel coronavirus began spreading earlier than previously understood, raising the possibility that herd immunity is closer than we think.
Chinese authorities say they first identified a case in Wuhan in November, but Beijing didn’t lock down Hubei province until Jan. 23. For two months direct flights ran from Wuhan to 30 cities outside China, including London, New York, Paris,...
and evidently the USA will be exiting WHO shortly.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-07-2020).]
To show just how convoluted things are, a headline screenshot right off the current health section of GoogleNews..
herd immunity... called into question... closer than we think? May not be possible?
and evidently the USA will be exiting WHO shortly.
The WHO, as well as most of the EU-based organizations, have more or less been pretty corrupt and huge money wasters. The WHO is welcome to do what they want, but without the US in there, it'll probably lose its prominence. Not my problem, and honestly don't care. Just means we can invest more of our own money into the CDC.
As for the news articles... the news stations have been getting worse, and worse, and worse. I mean, they are so bad right now that literally it seems everything is opinion. Every channel is about ratings now... so everything has a shock title, even when the actual subject has nothing to do with it.
I've seen articles that start off with...
Heading: "Corona-virus can kill you dead in two days or less!!!"
Article: "... is what people are asking. But is it true? We ask several doctors...
(10 lines later that have nothing to do with it.
(last line) Bottom line is, we don't know, and we only show a few instances of this occurring. Wear a mask!
That's from 9 days ago, but I don't think the most current data plot looks any better, in terms of US vs EU.
I was just reading about the virus itself and how it is known to have mutated. I don't think that explains it.
Some will look towards differences in counting and record-keeping between the US and the EU, but could that account for anything beyond just a small part of this Tenfold or Order of Magnitude of difference? The US has about 330 million people; the EU, 440 million, if memory serves me.
That data plot is not from this new BGR report. (I got the data plot from a column that suggested that the NFL could play a 2020 season in Europe.)
It's a "long-ish" report, and I think maybe not as overall "terrible news" as the banner under which it appears. There is discussion of vaccines, antibodies, immunity and the so-called "herd" immunity.
I also heard a brief comment from frequent MSNBC-guest Dr Kavita Patel (held an advisory post in the Obama administration) about CT scans and X-rays revealing damage even among persons who are known to have been infected with the virus but remained "asymptomatic." I hope it's a story that does not hold up under closer and continuing scrutiny. It's the first time I came across that idea.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-07-2020).]
We are using cloth masks but we line them with filter paper that will filter the virus. Its hard to wear them and be very active as it makes it harder to breath. We stay inside as much as possible. Haven't had any human interaction besides Lisa in months.
While I am worried and hope that there will be some break soon, Lisa is terrified of this virus. We had to go get her car smog tested and it turned a 30 minute trip into 3 hours. Cant wait till I have to go in October.
How did they put the plague behind them ? Where did they find their magic wand ?
Herd Impunity (correct spelling) ?
Which plague and which time period? If you are referring to what is generally called the Black Plague, they did it by isolation/quarantine. Social distancing. https://www.history.com/new...black-death-smallpox
I suppose we should consider ourselves lucky that the bacteria that causes plague is not spore forming, but it's still around today, no matter what.
I was in Walmart a couple days ago and saw a guy with no mask but was wearing a full face shield..the kind you wear when using a grinder. Next time I go, I'm wearing my welding hood with just a light lens in it and walk around saying things like "Never underestimate the power of the Dark Side". "Your Jedi mind tricks won't work on me boy"
I was in Walmart a couple days ago and saw a guy with no mask but was wearing a full face shield..the kind you wear when using a grinder.
I recently went to a restaurant for the first time since early March. The servers were all wearing very strange masks. They are clear plastic, but instead of hanging from the top of the face/head, they are sealed against the chin and go half-way up the face. As the servers explained, when they come to a customer's table, they are towering over those who are seated. This style of mask protects the seated customers.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: The masks and stuff like what MJ's wife and others are making at home... they obviously don't filter out much, but do serve to eliminate mucous spray, which is the goal.
The material used can be more effective. The material with a higher thread count. Silk and nylons are a good, maybe the best medium for home grown.
Conclusions In conclusion, we have measured the filtration efficiencies of various commonly available fabrics for use as cloth masks in filtering particles in the significant (for aerosol-based virus transmission) size range of ∼10 nm to ∼6 μm and have presented filtration efficiency data as a function of aerosol particle size. We find that cotton, natural silk, and chiffon can providegoodprotection, typically above 50% in the entire 10 nm to 6.0 μm range, provided they have a tight weave.
Higher 'threads per inch' TPI cotton with tighter weaves resulted in better filtration efficiencies. For instance, a 600 TPI cotton sheet can provide average filtration efficiencies of 79 ± 23% (in the 10 nm to 300 nm range) and 98.4 ± 0.2% (in the 300 nm to 6 μm range). A cotton quilt with batting provides 96 ± 2% (10 nm to 300 nm) and 96.1 ± 0.3% (300 nm to 6 μm). Likely the highly tangled fibrous nature of the batting aids in the superior performance at small particle sizes.
Materials such as silk and chiffon are particularly effective (considering their sheerness) at excluding particles in the nanoscale regime (<∼100 nm), likely due to electrostatic effects that result in charge transfer with nanoscale aerosol particles. A four-layer silk (used, for instance, as a scarf) was surprisingly effective with an average efficiency of >85% across the 10 nm −6 μm particle size range. As a result, we found that hybrid combinations of cloths such as high threads-per-inch cotton along with silk, chiffon, or flannel can provide broad filtration coverage across both the nanoscale (<300 nm) and micron scale (300 nm to 6 μm) range, likely due to the combined effects of electrostatic and physical filtering. Finally, it is important to note that openings and gaps (such as those between the mask edge and the facial contours) can degrade the performance. Our findings indicate that leakages around the mask area can degrade efficiencies by ∼50% or more, pointing out the importance of “fit”. Opportunities for future studies include cloth mask design for better “fit” and the role of factors such as humidity (arising from exhalation) and the role of repeated use and washing of cloth masks. In summary, we find that the use of cloth masks can potentially provide significant protection against the transmission of particles in the aerosol size range.
More good info in there that I did not highlight.
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[B]Originally posted by maryjane: Regarding one of my earlier statements:
There is now more growing evidence that Covid19 virus IS air transmittable.
... those little droplets also go up into the air where, Milton says, they can float around for at least some time. Milton, a professor of environmental health at the University of Maryland who studies how viruses are transmitted, has helped lead a group of 239 scientists who wrote an open letter to appeal for better recognition of the potential airborne transmission of coronavirus.[/i]
From a link from you to me to me earlier in this thread.
Particles of such small sizes can remain suspended in the air for long periods. This presents a potential exposure risk to people both close to the source and at greater distances. A spherical particle of 4 μm in diameter takes 33 min to settle 1 m in still air, compared to a 1 μm particle that will take 8 hours to settle.
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Originally posted by Patrick: As the servers explained, when they come to a customer's table, they are towering over those who are seated. This style of mask protects the seated customers.
a) Because they probably don't know how to make grits or cornbread. b) Because they serve poutine. c) Because it's too far to drive. d) Because cliffw is not allowed in Canada. e) All of the above, eh?
a) Because they probably don't know how to make grits or cornbread. b) Because they serve poutine. c) Because it's too far to drive. d) Because cliffw is not allowed in Canada. e) All of the above, eh?
I had already considered "c" when I posted, but you've probably touched upon some other pretty good reasons!
Thanks. No wonder I could not find a weight value, since it gets lighter as the fluid droplets dehydrate.
It will be stated as mass, not weight. in SI units (atomic weight or mole) Extremely 'light'. Somewhere along the lines of less than a millionth of a trillionth of a gram, where 1 gram = 0.035274 oz. Sometimes stated in attograms, femtograms, or zeptograms.
Originally posted by Patrick: Please elaborate... why not?
It's simple really. There is no way in hell those masks will contain the Kung Flu contagions ! Every exhale will push the previous contagions out and about.
There is no way in hell those masks will contain the Kung Flu contagions ! Every exhale will push the previous contagions out and about.
I don't believe any of the standard masks the general public are using actually "contain" the virus, they just slow down the expulsion upon exhalation so as to prevent a direct path to those in front of the wearer. These masks supposedly accomplish the same thing by directing exhalation off toward the sides. Customers sitting at the table (and/or their food) won't be "spit" on by the servers. I'll agree though, it's an imprecise science.
I don't believe any of the standard masks the general public are using actually "contain" the virus, they just slow down the expulsion upon exhalation so as to prevent a direct path to those in front of the wearer. These masks supposedly accomplish the same thing by directing exhalation off toward the sides. Customers sitting at the table (and/or their food) won't be "spit" on by the servers. I'll agree though, it's an imprecise science.
Not much to disagree with here, but I will add that a mask does effectively slow down the virus particles. Rather than shooting straight out of a person's mouth and nose, a mask if worn correctly will dissipate the exhalation over a surface area 10x greater than your mouth. This substantially slows the speed of the particles. The longer they take to travel, the longer they are exposed to the harsh anti-viral environment of "the air" and the greater your chance that they die before they get to you. Not only does the virtual particles slow down through a mask, but they are also redirected to multiple directions further reducing the "viral load" of the exhalation in any given direction. That shield is better than nothing, but I think a mask is better. The shield looks like it is easier to breath in. The ease of breathing is its drawback. The viral load is discharged rapidly rather than slowing the virus down. People do not like the discomfort or inconvenience of masks, so solutions to replace the mask are being made.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 07-09-2020).]
It's simple really. There is no way in hell those masks will contain the Kung Flu contagions ! Every exhale will push the previous contagions out and about.
A false statement. But, since you made it, you now get to present scientific evidence that proves it.
You need to stop looking at both the pathogen and the masks in such simplistic terms. If what you are saying had any truth to it at all, most of the world's health care workers would have been dead long ago, and not just from Covid19, as the same would hold true upon each and every inhale as well. ..IF what you are saying were true. (it's not)
Originally posted by maryjane: A false statement. But, since you made it, you now get to present scientific evidence that proves it.
A false statement ? Since you allege that, you get to present scientific evidence that proves it.
Gee maryjane, my claim was made from logic, . My logic comes from what I have heard and what I have researched. One renowned researcher I know, YOU, said the pathogen contagion IS air transmittable. Meaning it is subject to physics. Airflow will move the containment of pathogen contagions.
The CDC says masks should be tight fitting with no openings. The Covid has not been said to be heavier than air, meaning it will float and migrate with air flow.
That pictured mask is like a glass with no sides. One which will overfill as more breath goes into it. That mask reminds me of noise barriers airports, which just dampen the problem but does not eliminate it.
I thought there was agreement that no mask holds in all the pathogen contagions. I stand by my belief.
Michael Osterholm, Director of CIDRAP, discusses the surge of COVID-19 cases and how front line workers are being impacted by the virus.
This YouTube video is just over 2 minutes from Meet The Press Daily with MSNBC anchor Chuck Todd; part of a somewhat longer conversation from today, Friday, July 10, 2020.
CIDRAP is the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, and its director, Michael T. Osterholm, has earned three medical and public health-related graduate degrees, including a PhD for Environmental Health from the University of Minnesota.
His CV or "bio" is a list of professional achievements "as long as your arm."
Osterholm projects that by the end of this month (July) at least 1000 front line medical and health care workers, including practicing medical doctors, nurses and EMTs (all within his counting, I think) will have died across the nation because of exposure to the coronavirus.
During this same conversation, Osterholm said that the many kinds of numbers that he has reviewed leads him to estimate that only about 8 percent of the U.S. population can now be considered to have any kind of immunity because of exposure to the virus, and even considering the impressively large daily numbers of new positive diagnoses--more than 70,000 during the last 24 hours--it would take another full year of sustaining the current rate of infections before the U.S. would reach the 50 percent milestone that is at the very low end of his estimate for "herd immunity."
Osterholm describes the current situation as "unsustainable" and recommends more and larger state and regional shutdowns until the Covid virus transmission is largely abated and the daily new case numbers are much closer to Zero than the 60,000+ that are most recently being counted across the entire U.S. He holds up the examples of the regional alliance of New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, of the European Union, and of "other industrialized nations" as proof that it can be done and showing exactly how it can be done.
rinselberg monitors MSNBC, so you don't have to.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-11-2020).]
"COVID-19 antibody study in Spain warns herd immunity 'cannot be achieved' without devastating effects"
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A study in Spain has found that only a small percentage of people have COVID-19 antibodies, warning that herd immunity will be “difficult to achieve.” . . . The Spanish study, which was published in the Lancet, involved more than 61,000 participants. Experts from the Institute of Health Carlos III in Madrid, the Spanish Ministry of Health and Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health worked on the project. . . . The study found that, despite the high impact of COVID-19 in Spain, estimates of the prevalence of antibodies remain low and are “clearly insufficient” to provide herd immunity. “This cannot be achieved without accepting the collateral damage of many deaths in the susceptible population and overburdening of health systems,” the researchers wrote. “In this situation, social distance measures and efforts to identify and isolate new cases and their contacts are imperative for future epidemic control.” . . .
The majority of the Spanish population is seronegative [tested negative for antibodies] to SARS-CoV-2 infection, even in hotspot areas. Most PCR-confirmed cases [people who tested positive for the virus] have detectable antibodies, but a substantial proportion of people with symptoms compatible with COVID-19 did not have a PCR test and at least a third of infections determined by serology were asymptomatic. These results emphasise the need for maintaining public health measures to avoid a new epidemic wave.
Who dat say?
Professor Marina Pollán et al, in The Lancet.
"Prevalence of SARS-CoV-2 in Spain (ENE-COVID): a nationwide, population-based seroepidemiological study" Professor Marina Pollán et al, in The Lancet; July 6, 2020. https://www.thelancet.com/j...(20)31483-5/fulltext
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-11-2020).]
But here's a report that exemplifies the kind of quandary (cognitive dissonance?) that the world is experiencing. So much about the virus and the Covid-19 pandemic is still seemingly subject to uncertainties and arguments.
. My logic comes from what I have heard and what I have researched. One renowned researcher I know, YOU, said the pathogen contagion IS air transmittable. Meaning it is subject to physics. Airflow will move the containment of pathogen contagions.
