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Defunding Police Dept? by blackrams
Started on: 06-06-2020 07:58 AM
Replies: 98 (1541 views)
Last post by: cliffw on 06-30-2020 08:10 PM
blackrams
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Report this Post06-06-2020 07:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cities Ask if It’s Time to Defund Police and ‘Reimagine’ Public Safety
https://www.msn.com/en-us/n...id=spartan-dhp-feeds

Looks to me as if "some" cities want to go back to the days of the Wild Wild West.
Those wishing to "Defund" police agencies should spend a month in a LEOs shoes.

Rams
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Report this Post06-06-2020 08:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LitebulbwithaFieroClick Here to Email LitebulbwithaFieroSend a Private Message to LitebulbwithaFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So lets ban all guns and defund the cops.

Criminals paradise
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Report this Post06-06-2020 08:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Seems pretty close to throwing the baby out with the bath water to me.
But, what do I know.

Oh yeah, let's also make more laws for no one to enforce. Let's defund prisons also, just think about how much money we can save if we don't lock anyone up.
Castle Laws will now be enforced by criminals...…… Yeah, that's the ticket.

Rams
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williegoat
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Report this Post06-06-2020 11:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageClick Here to Email williegoatSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There are some things, like the “green new debacle”, that are so incredibly stupid that it is hard to imagine that they are even being discussed by adults. However, there are now sufficient numbers of citizens of voting age who are so thoroughly removed from the harsh realities of life that they have lost their ability to think through the consequences of their decisions. The country is now in the hands of fully grown children.

Of course our keepers, the ruling class, politicians and captains of (government approved) industry don't care. They can afford or have government (citizen funded) security. We will live in a fiefdom, soon enough.
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Report this Post06-06-2020 01:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FatsClick Here to Email FatsSend a Private Message to FatsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The way I see it, they will publicly defund the Police, and quietly move the funding over to the Sheriff's department.

They seem to think that changing the name of things changes the thing.
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Rickady88GT
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Report this Post06-06-2020 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
No Police, no parking tickets and speeding tickets. No City money coming in.
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williegoat
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Report this Post06-06-2020 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageClick Here to Email williegoatSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
They think they have problems now with strong-arm enforcement, beatings and killings? Just take away the fuzz and let the drug dealers and gangs run unchecked.
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Report this Post06-06-2020 09:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The Leftists: "Abolish the Electoral College"

The Leftists: "Abolish The Department of Homeland Security"

The Leftists: "Abolish ICE"

The Leftists: "Abolish CBP"

The Leftists: "Abolish bail"

The Leftists: "Empty the jails and prisons"

The Leftists: "Defund the police"

Do you see the pattern yet?
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Report this Post06-06-2020 10:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The leftists can't seem to decide if they want a police state or the wild west. The cognitive dissonance is breathtaking.
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Report this Post06-06-2020 11:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

The leftists can't seem to decide if they want a police state or the wild west. The cognitive dissonance is breathtaking.


I think the "leftists" are more focused on their goals than the "non-leftists". Backlash has always been a bad thing, but what will this one look like.
Imagine Trump wins and regains Congress. He has been fairly consistent about getting rid of the people he does not like. Imagine all of the investigations his administration will open.
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Report this Post06-06-2020 11:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


I think the "leftists" are more focused on their goals than the "non-leftists". Backlash has always been a bad thing, but what will this one look like.
Imagine Trump wins and regains Congress. He has been fairly consistent about getting rid of the people he does not like. Imagine all of the investigations his administration will open.


With everyone else watching nothing but riots for the past week they have probably missed the results of Senate investigations, (hearings) that have produced some pretty damning testimony for the Left.
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Report this Post06-07-2020 12:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

There are some things, like the “green new debacle”, that are so incredibly stupid that it is hard to imagine that they are even being discussed by adults. However, there are now sufficient numbers of citizens of voting age who are so thoroughly removed from the harsh realities of life that they have lost their ability to think through the consequences of their decisions. The country is now in the hands of fully grown children.

Of course our keepers, the ruling class, politicians and captains of (government approved) industry don't care. They can afford or have government (citizen funded) security. We will live in a fiefdom, soon enough.


In the 1980s, thinking in our schools and universities was "outlawed". It was deemed by the left to be a hate crime.

The idea behind the rejection of thinking is this: Anything that you believe is going to be so tainted by your personal prejudices that the only way not to be a bigot is to never think at all.

Students were taught that discrimination in ANY form is a hate crime and immoral.

Consequently we have a generation or two of children that were taught to be totally indiscriminate in their thinking.

The modern leftist / liberal purposefully does not think beyond the level of a five-year-old because to do so would be an act of discrimination tantamount to admitting that some ways of thinking or doing things are inherently better than others.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 06-07-2020).]

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Wichita
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Report this Post06-07-2020 12:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WichitaClick Here to Email WichitaSend a Private Message to WichitaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You want to see brutality? Have no cops.

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Report this Post06-07-2020 07:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:

You want to see brutality? Have no cops.


Some people are protesting Police brutally and discrimination/racism but who or what will replace Police and at what cost?
The politicians have a sworn duty to protect the public, eradicating Law Enforcement all together is not an option. They have to have a plan that protects the public. So what is that plan and how can they assure that it is an improvement over the current system?
I think it is just all talk and no action.
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blackrams
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Report this Post06-07-2020 09:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


Some people are protesting Police brutally and discrimination/racism but who or what will replace Police and at what cost?
The politicians have a sworn duty to protect the public, eradicating Law Enforcement all together is not an option. They have to have a plan that protects the public. So what is that plan and how can they assure that it is an improvement over the current system?
I think it is just all talk and no action.


Will be interesting to see what they come up with. Law Enforcement is a dangerous job. LEOs all want to go home at the end of their shift. Will be interesting to see how recruiting goes once they are powerless to protect while serving. This is not suggest there aren't bad cops, There are bad people in all walks of life. Justice is supposed to be blind.
I know this, there is no way I would advise anyone I care about to go into law enforcement until this climate changes.

Rams
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Report this Post06-07-2020 10:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
I know this, there is no way I would advise anyone I care about to go into law enforcement until this climate changes.

Rams


Changes to what?
The way it has already been?

 
quote
Will be interesting to see how recruiting goes once they are powerless to protect while serving.

Protect who?
Who, are they serving?
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82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post06-07-2020 11:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:
Changes to what?
The way it has already been?

Protect who?
Who, are they serving?


Of my friends who are police officers... (they're in their 40s), the "climate" started getting pretty bad about 6-7 years ago. Specifically... they get increased resistance when pulling people over... a lot of the people who pull them over refuse to comply stating that the only reason they were pulled over was because they were black. One of my friends who is a black police officer, says that when he pulls people over, they call him an uncle Tom, or they ask him why they are perpetuating the hate (whatever that means).

The biggest thing that frustrates them, is that their local city council denigrates and harasses them... yet for these officers, this is a career for them.

I was going to ask you if ever in your life, you remembered what it was like to do a job, and have half the country hate your guts for it... and then I remember that you served in Vietnam in the 60s. That's what it's like right now for police officers. They're almost universally hated by the left. They're expected to protect people who absolutely hate them.
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Report this Post06-07-2020 11:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
US Supreme Court has ruled (more than once) that the police aren't obligated to protect anyone. And they're only obligated to serve the government entity that employs them.

https://www.criminallegalne...they-required-serve/

https://www.barneslawllp.co...not-required-protect

 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I was going to ask you if ever in your life, you remembered what it was like to do a job, and have half the country hate your guts for it... and then I remember that you served in Vietnam in the 60s. That's what it's like right now for police officers. They're almost universally hated by the left. They're expected to protect people who absolutely hate them.

This is why I never pursued a career in law enforcement.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 06-07-2020).]

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maryjane
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Report this Post06-07-2020 03:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


Of my friends who are police officers... (they're in their 40s), the "climate" started getting pretty bad about 6-7 years ago. Specifically... they get increased resistance when pulling people over... a lot of the people who pull them over refuse to comply stating that the only reason they were pulled over was because they were black. One of my friends who is a black police officer, says that when he pulls people over, they call him an uncle Tom, or they ask him why they are perpetuating the hate (whatever that means).

The biggest thing that frustrates them, is that their local city council denigrates and harasses them... yet for these officers, this is a career for them.

I was going to ask you if ever in your life, you remembered what it was like to do a job, and have half the country hate your guts for it... and then I remember that you served in Vietnam in the 60s. That's what it's like right now for police officers. They're almost universally hated by the left. They're expected to protect people who absolutely hate them.

And like me, they volunteered of their own volition to take on the job, regardless of risk or whether anyone liked them or not and regardless of how anyone treats them. No one in the US is drafted into law enforcement (or the military any longer).

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Report this Post06-08-2020 12:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

And like me, they volunteered of their own volition to take on the job, regardless of risk or whether anyone liked them or not and regardless of how anyone treats them. No one in the US is drafted into law enforcement (or the military any longer).


Of course.

No one likes a bad cop, I think that's a given. But it's obvious (at least to me) that the direction these city managers are going is merely smoke and mirrors to pacify their constituency in order to make them happen. I suppose... if the majority of their constituency says they want the police department *gone*... then they are absolutely doing the people's bidding. But, you get the Government you vote for, and if that's what these crazy "progressives" want, then so be it.

I just question if all these avacado-toast eating liberal Millennial men living in the city have any concept of what happens if the police force truly disappears. Do they think bad people simply do crimes because they're crazy or because there's no shoulder to cry on?
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Report this Post06-08-2020 02:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
sigh..I really wasn't going to get into this discussion at all as it's not nearly the first time I've seen it happen in this nation.
I do agree that much of the posturing by city and state officials is simply for their domestic voter's consumption, but it is also for the police department's notice.
It was noted in another thread how quickly so many police chiefs condemned the death of Floyd.........

That too, is smoke and mirrors. Regardless of what any police chief says thinks or states, nothing will really change until rank and file police change...period.
They haven't changed much in the many years I've been alive and I don't think they will change much in the future. I watched the video of 2 officers pushing an older guy down and then just walk past as he lay bleeding out his right ear from his head hitting the sidewalk. Those 2 were soon suspended by the Chief of Police from the unit they were in, charged with assault, and over 50 rank and file members of the same unit quit the unit...not because of the 2 officer's actions but because the chief suspended the 2 officers.


https://6abc.com/buffalo-po...oyd-protest/6232706/
As long as so many officers blindly and openly support poor behavior, there will be no change in attitude or behavior.
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Report this Post06-08-2020 05:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Things I would like reformed by the police:

Civil Asset Forfeiture. Taking property without charging a crime is legalized theft.
No-knock warrants: Plain clothes officers busting down someone's door? What could go wrong?

Just two right away that might slow down the abuses happening.
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Report this Post06-08-2020 06:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

Things I would like reformed by the police:

Civil Asset Forfeiture. Taking property without charging a crime is legalized theft.
No-knock warrants: Plain clothes officers busting down someone's door? What could go wrong?

Just two right away that might slow down the abuses happening.



Just a point of order if I may.

Warrants are issued by judges. Police have to get a warrant from a judge beforehand.

That is because search warrants tread all over our 4th Amendment rights.

Judges need to be a LOT more circumspect and very specific about handing out warrants to the police, especially "no-knock" warrants which are inherently enacted with violent force.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-...nt-basics-29742.html

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 06-08-2020).]

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Report this Post06-08-2020 07:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree with your assessment about judges. Remember that the police are the ones making the request. Judges approve or not, but police make the request. No-knock warrants are forbidden in Oregon and Florida.
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Report this Post06-08-2020 08:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MidEngineManiacSend a Private Message to MidEngineManiacEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The problem is systematic in that police have come to view themselves as a ruling class and us peons as serf enemies.

I notice it most in and around Toronto. The attitude from them is "anything is illegal if I say it is". That's especially prevalent around free speech. Use the wrong word or say the wrong thing and you end up in handcuffs. It's a rare day that I don't read an article about it and I've had a few run ins with them myself in the past. One of the reasons I avoid the place like the plague whenever humanly possible.

Basically, "I'm offended " being enforced at the point of a gun.
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Report this Post06-08-2020 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Humans are tribal by nature. And the police are no exception. This is why I don't like the militarization of police forces. Give them access to military equipment, and they'll be tempted to use it... on their fellow citizens.
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Report this Post06-08-2020 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Humans are tribal by nature. And the police are no exception. This is why I don't like the militarization of police forces. Give them access to military equipment, and they'll be tempted to use it... on their fellow citizens.


You made the claim so I would like to see you list each piece of "military equipment" accompanied by a specific example of its "misuse" by police.

Don't sidestep it by saying that you said "tempted".

Show us where and when it has actually happened.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 06-08-2020).]

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Report this Post06-08-2020 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

I agree with your assessment about judges. Remember that the police are the ones making the request. Judges approve or not, but police make the request. No-knock warrants are forbidden in Oregon and Florida.


When I said that judges need to be more circumspect I mean that they really need to VERY carefully scrutinize affidavits under oath and penalty of perjury by the police to get a warrant, (that's what they file with a court to get one), and be VERY pointed in reminding the police of the penalty of perjury and then enforcing those penalties if it is later discovered that the police have lied to obtain a warrant.

There are far too many judges that see themselves as a part of law enforcement instead of their proper and legal role as neutral triers of fact and they hand out warrants to police without thought, scrutiny or question, thereby eliminating THE most important safeguard that was built into the system.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 06-08-2020).]

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Report this Post06-09-2020 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:


You made the claim so I would like to see you list each piece of "military equipment" accompanied by a specific example of its "misuse" by police.

Don't sidestep it by saying that you said "tempted".

Show us where and when it has actually happened.



I am 100% on the side of Police AND their use of "military " equipment. That being said I will give an example of a misuse of that power AND the flaw in human nature that curses ALL of humanity regardless of the tools they have in hand. Waco Texas
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Report this Post06-10-2020 02:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


I am 100% on the side of Police AND their use of "military " equipment. That being said I will give an example of a misuse of that power AND the flaw in human nature that curses ALL of humanity regardless of the tools they have in hand. Waco Texas


I don't want to nit pick the Waco / Branch Davidian tragedy but I believe if you look a little deeper at the history you will find that it was the Feds, (ATF) that brought in the Texas National Guard with their equipment. Neither the local Sheriffs department or the state police had any equipment like that.
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Report this Post06-10-2020 05:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MidEngineManiacSend a Private Message to MidEngineManiacEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


I am 100% on the side of Police AND their use of "military " equipment. That being said I will give an example of a misuse of that power AND the flaw in human nature that curses ALL of humanity regardless of the tools they have in hand. Waco Texas


I'm not. In the slightest. A long time ago in a different life, the Canadian government spent a lot of money teaching me what different weapons can do and how to make them do it.

As a man, no I won't. I am not willing (but able ) to use that kind of force on Canadians or Americans. It was something learned to defend us all. Not for a bunch of Cowboys to run wild with.
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Report this Post06-10-2020 07:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
San Diego defies calls to 'defund the police,' but it 'won't be business as usual' in California's second largest city

https://www.msn.com/en-us/n...id=spartan-ntp-feeds

Amid growing calls nationwide to "defund the police" in the wake of George Floyd's death in Minneapolis, California's second largest city is doing the opposite.

The San Diego City Council voted 8-1 late Monday to increase funding for its police department after nearly 10 hours of public comment that included some residents demanding to reduce police funding, NBC 7 San Diego reported.

“This is about systemic, generational issues that we must acknowledge and address, and those won’t be solved overnight with a single budget vote," Mayor Kevin Faulconer told USA TODAY in a statement on Tuesday. "We’re going to keep funding our police department but it won’t be business as usual."

Changes began last week, in fact, when Faulconer banned the use of the carotid restraint by police officers, and the mayor said he is supporting a ballot measure to increase independent oversight of the agency.

"Now more than ever we need well-trained officers who understand our communities, so we will continue to invest in hiring and training officers who come from our neighborhoods and look like our diverse city,” Faulconer said.

Councilmember Chris Ward was the lone vote against Faulconer's proposed budget, which included increasing police funding by $27 million to $566 million for the next fiscal year, The San Diego Union-Tribune reported.

"We need to allocate more funding into rental assistance, small business assistance, we need to put federal dollars to use for the people who need it. I don't think we've gone far enough," Ward said on Twitter.

Council President Pro Tem Barbara Bry said the city did not defund the police because they want to focus on restoring trust. "Which means recruiting more officers committed to this approach, providing them with better training and support, and strengthening community oversight," Bry told NBC 7 in a statement.

Demonstrators across the country are demanding local officials cut funding from police departments and reallocate those funds into social programs that would help communities of color and marginalized communities. Floyd, a black man, died after a white police officer pinned him under his knee for nearly nine minutes on Memorial Day, spurring national protests against police brutality and racial inequality.

"It’s not just about taking away money from the police, it’s about reinvesting those dollars into black communities," Patrisse Cullors, a co-founder of the Black Lives Matter movement, told WBUR.

That's already happening in some places.

In Minneapolis, a veto-proof majority of the city council pledged to dismantle its police department and create a new system of public safety.
"It is clear that our system of policing is not keeping our communities safe," council President Lisa Bender said. "Our efforts at incremental reform have failed, period."

In Los Angeles, Mayor Eric Garcetti said he would use $250 million from his proposed city budget for youth jobs, health initiatives and trauma healing centers — including up to $150 million from the police, The Los Angeles Times reported.

In New York City, Mayor Bill de Blasio said he would move funding from the police department to youth initiatives and social services. However, de Blasio did not reveal how much would be taken from the agency, The New York Times reported.

Amid George Floyd protests: Police fired, charged with excessive force Instead of pulling funds from the police department, the San Diego council created a new city Office of Race and Equity and increased its rent relief fund from $5 million to $15.1 million, The Union-Tribune reported.

The office will "help eliminate barriers as it relates to city contracting, city policies and developing stronger relationships with the community,” according to Faulconer.
Monday's council meeting included more than 400 calls, with some demanding a reduction in the city's police funding, the Union-Tribune reported. Others, however, voiced support for police.

Audrey Churchward was one of them. “Please do not listen to the minority who feel the police do more harm to our citizens than good,” she said. “Better screening, better training — but don’t defund them. I am thankful for our police. A majority of them have done more good than evil.”

Amanda Chisholm contended that police did not need additional funding. Instead, she said, “We need funding taken from the police department and given directly to people living in slum conditions."Huy Tran called the budget proposal "immoral."

"Millions of people are losing their jobs and you're funding the police?'' said Tran.
Contributing: Ryan W. Miller, USA TODAY; The Associated Press
------------------
Rams

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but …
after a shooting, the problem is the gun....
Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.

My wife told me to grow up. I told her to get out of my fort!

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Originally posted by blackrams:

stuff...




I'm trying to read this with an open mind, but I think what's lacking here is an understanding of human nature.

If you put a piece of broccoli and a Snicker's "Fun Size" on a counter, and in front of an overweight 5 year old... what do you think is going to happen? The child is going to take the candy bar. What politicians don't understand (or perhaps they understand only too well), is that they've set up a reliance, perhaps an addiction, to Government resources.

When a kid was growing up in a ghetto-type environment back in the 1990s and earlier, they become a product of their own environment. That is, without proper parenting, guidance, and direction... they will continue down a path that perpetuates this poverty and crime. Almost everyone wants to succeed, become famous, or become successful, this is doubly so when they have none of that. Some people are happy just being content, but when you're not, you want the things that others have. So when as a teenager, you're growing up in the ghetto, you look at two possible scenarios:

1 - Life of crime, probably joining a gang, which will make you feel a part of something... and the perspective of getting rich quick (through theft and drugs).
2 - Having a good job, working for a corporation, and making it big.

Almost everyone in the ghetto will end up picking #1 simply because they're taught from the beginning that #2 is unattainable to them. Furthermore, in today's society with Liberals, Progressives, Leftists, etc... all convincing them that they are victims, they are essentially teaching them to HATE option #2 because it's not only ill-gotten, but that they'll never be able to achieve such things.

With this mentality, the Government assumes more responsibility over the family and raising of kids... both through public education, and through social welfare programs that force people to become dependent upon them.


The Democrats / Progressives continue down this path, and things only go from bad, to worse, to worst.


The only difference between a poor immigrant to America from Eastern Europe, and a poor person in the ghetto of Chicago, is attitude. The person from Eastern Europe likely has less of an education than the person already from America (in the ghetto), but has a desire to do something with their life, while the person from the ghetto has been conditioned to believe they are a victim and will never be able to amount to anything.


Democrats prey on this, and this is why I have such a hatred of the vast majority of Democrat politicians... they are either extremely ignorant, or they know all too well what they're doing.


I'd love for any of the 2 or 3 liberals on here to debate this and prove me wrong. Please...
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Originally posted by randye:


I don't want to nit pick the Waco / Branch Davidian tragedy but I believe if you look a little deeper at the history you will find that it was the Feds, (ATF) that brought in the Texas National Guard with their equipment. Neither the local Sheriffs department or the state police had any equipment like that.


I understand, and yes you are correct, my point is that the use of "military" equipment is not an issue with me. Regardless of the branch who uses the equipment the outcome is the same, heavy equipment is being used on American citizens on American soil outside of a war scenario for the purpose of "protecting and serving" the public. In the case of the Branch Dividians, I don't think any other outcome would have been "better" for them because they would not have come out anyway. I am all in favor of giving the Police anything they ask for to fight crime and do a more efficient and effective job of protecting the public AND serving the public. The misuse of ANY tool is usually one of two things: improper training or abuse. The training part is easier to address but the abuse part is a human nature flaw. ALL people have the capacity to become raged and that is where the partners need to step in and stop the "code black" or" tunnel vision" and deescalatethe situation. In the case of Floyd, the other 3 officers failed to step in and bring the situation to a close without injury. BTW, this incident had several brake downs, not just a failure to step up.
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Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


I understand, and yes you are correct, my point is that the use of "military" equipment is not an issue with me. Regardless of the branch who uses the equipment the outcome is the same, heavy equipment is being used on American citizens on American soil outside of a war scenario for the purpose of "protecting and serving" the public. In the case of the Branch Dividians, I don't think any other outcome would have been "better" for them because they would not have come out anyway. I am all in favor of giving the Police anything they ask for to fight crime and do a more efficient and effective job of protecting the public AND serving the public. The misuse of ANY tool is usually one of two things: improper training or abuse. The training part is easier to address but the abuse part is a human nature flaw. ALL people have the capacity to become raged and that is where the partners need to step in and stop the "code black" or" tunnel vision" and deescalatethe situation. In the case of Floyd, the other 3 officers failed to step in and bring the situation to a close without injury. BTW, this incident had several brake downs, not just a failure to step up.

2 of the officers on scene were rookies, and did speak up regarding Floyd's not being able to breathe but did not act farther. The officer with knee on Floyd's neck was their training officer and their superior officer.


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Originally posted by maryjane:

2 of the officers on scene were rookies, and did speak up regarding Floyd's not being able to breathe but did not act farther. The officer with knee on Floyd's neck was their training officer and their superior officer.




I've never been a police officer, but I do know that they try to emulate (somewhat) military rank. As such, they're also trained in similar ways to respect authority and direction, and to not question it. It's the same way in the fire department, because if someone goes rogue, they run the risk of dying.

It's really unfortunate that these trainees had this officer as their instructor.

It's clear the officer who killed Floyd used at best, poor judgement, and at worst, lack of empathy and hate. But I do wonder to what extent the trainees deserve to take a fall for what's happened. I suppose they'll get their day in court, I just have a hard time personally determining how much or how little responsibility they hold. But I've not read much about this because there's no reason why I really need to hold any kind of opinion on this. It doesn't change how I view the world, or how I treat others... and the tragedy is also being exploited through propaganda by our international enemies to destabilize this country... so I hope people can keep their heads together while not being persuaded by the radicalism of propaganda.
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quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

2 of the officers on scene were rookies, and did speak up regarding Floyd's not being able to breathe but did not act farther. The officer with knee on Floyd's neck was their training officer and their superior officer.



As far as I understand the information coming out, as of now I thought the training officer was not the one on Floyd's neck. But that is irrelevant and I am not contesting your post. Even if I was wrong about the roles they played in the incident my opinion is that even if the most senior Officers fail to act professionally or fail to do their job, even if those senior Officers outrank the new Officers, they can still step into the scenario and take over. They absolutely have an obligation to protect life, even if the threat is from one of their own senior supervisors. A failure to do so will result in civil and or criminal action. Out here in California we are trained and basically threatened with termination of employment as a minimum punishment in addition to civil and criminal action if we DON'T stop such behavior. Rank and seniority has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with stepping in (even if the use of force is necessary on the person causing harm or using unnecessary or excessive use of force) in the name of preservation of life or a failure to follow departmental policy.
I know this did not happen in California, but I can't believe that such a basic policy is not Nationally adopted. Yes that is an assumption on my part.

For example: if a fist fight broke out in the police station Precinct between the two most senior supervisors, ANY person in the room could step in to break it up without fear of departmental punishment. Take it one step further: one of the supervisors pulls out a knife or gun on the other combatant? The use of force is an option that the uninvolved witnesses (Officers) has regardless of rank or seniority. But keep in mind the use of force is not mandated, it is an option. The Police Departments across the Nation are not trained to be above the law, that is a human nature flaw in thought and behavior. So dignity and preservation of life does not change if the people involved have a uniform or not. That means in the scenario I just brought up one person (the aggressor) can be a cop the other (victim) can be a civilian. Very much like the Floyd case.

I have an open mind on the matter and can see plea bargains being made, but I have a hard time seeing the 2 new Officers keeping their job. Most likely criminal action of some type will be in addition to termination of employment. The criminal "punishment" could be as minimal as "probation" and as harsh as prison. BUT regardless of the "punishment" the worst that can happen to them is inevitable they have to live with this for the rest of their life. That means for years, they will have to worry about being harassed everywhere they go and hide their identity to avoid harm/violence done to them and or family. Even their kids will have to deal with this treatment in school for a long time.

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TOPLINE Attorney Earl Gray, who is representing former Minneapolis police officer Thomas Lane, said Thursday in court that it was his client’s fourth shift and J. Alexander Kueng’s third as officers in the field when George Floyd was killed. Gray also said that their training officer was Derek Chauvin, who was caught on video kneeling on Floyd’s neck for almost nine minutes.

https://www.forbes.com/site...r-says/#2b3ad2712aa 1

and
https://fox6now.com/2020/06...p-but-didnt-step-in/

 
quote
Even though lawyers for the rookie officers say both men voiced their concerns about Chauvin’s actions in the moment, they ultimately failed to stop him. Chauvin is now charged with second-degree murder, and his three fellow officers are charged with aiding and abetting.

“This is a lesson for every cop in America: If you see something that is wrong, you need to step in,” said Joseph Giacalone, a former New York police sergeant who now teaches at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. “There are a lot of gray areas in policing, but this was crystal clear. … You’re better off being ostracized by the group than going to prison for murder.”

Added Andrew Scott, a former Boca Raton, Florida, police chief who testifies in use-of-force cases: “They’re suffering the effects of an organizational culture that doesn’t allow that or reward that behavior. The fraternity of law enforcement is a tight fraternity and fraternities have a group think.”

Attorneys for the two rookies, Thomas Lane and J. Alexander Kueng, emphasized their place in police hierarchy in the now-fired officers’ initial court appearance this past week. They noted both were on just their fourth day as full-fledged cops at the time of Floyd’s May 25 arrest, while Chauvin was an authority figure as a designated training officer for new cops.

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Report this Post06-11-2020 12:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The "culture" is such an easy word to use "culture of silence" "black culture" "white culture". It is like the words racist or fascist or global climate change. These words can mean ANYTHING to an individual or a group of people. We just use our individual bias, life influences, opinions, believes, leaders and role models and a myriad of other things to define the words.
In the context of a police culture of silence, many other factors play a part that people may not even know or think about. One is money. Police around the Country get paid differently, some get paid very well and others make next to minimum wage. (Before you think I am advocating for more money to Police Officers, think again) Money DOES NOT buy the best Officers, it may by the best of machines or clothes but money is not the best way to encourage the applicants. The culture of silence is a mentality, this mentality is farmed in the soil of human nature. Specifically "if nobody sees us do it, we can get away with it". Years of getting away with it leads to many wrongs going unseen and NOT just in Policing, it is many more times more rampant in politics. So, how do we weed out this "culture", you can't. It is human nature and is in ALL of us to varying degrees. For example without the culture of silence we would never have successful spies or trade secrets and on and on and on. In the context of Police culture of silence we can curb it back with instilling an anti- silence culture program that targets the new Officers specifically. BUT therein lies the problem, finding the best applicants. With so much hate for Officers and a culture of anti-cop the best applicants do not apply. Sometimes Police Departments are forced to hire suboptimal personnel just because of a limited number of applicants. Or because they have to hire quotas of this or that.
The application process and the recruitment process is of the highest priority in finding the best people to do the job, but the best do not always apply and those jobs will go to people who are less than the best.
Thus we get poor judgment skills like unnecessary use of force or excessive use of force from people who probably should not have been hired in the first place.
I support the Police Nation wide, and am not belittling them as a hole group. I recognize that the vast majority of them are good people and good Officers who do a much needed service to American Cities. But we have some bad ones, and it is up to the good Officers to put the bad ones in check. Without good ones applying for the job and being taught properly the culture will stay the same or get worse.

Bad cops destroy lives, reputations and credibility. Stand up against the "culture" because kneeling is weak.

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I support the Police Nation wide, and am not belittling them as a hole group. I recognize that the vast majority of them are good people and good Officers who do a much needed service to American Cities. But we have some bad ones, and it is up to the good Officers to put the bad ones in check. Without good ones applying for the job and being taught properly the culture will stay the same or get worse.

Well said. I keep hearing "they need more training..."

No..they need different training.

I am absolutely 100% against a 'National Police Force' but 100% in favor of a standardized code of conduct for every law enforcement agency, individual, and LEO group in the country. One that is enforceable and carries punishment, ('similar' to The Uniform Code of Military Justice)

Nothing that has happened in the last 30 days surprises me one bit...I've seen it all play out several times before thru the decades. Very little has really changed in the last 4-5 decades in regards to society/police relationships and certainly $$$$ won't change one bit of it. If we as a people and as a govt has to 'bribe' people to 'do the right thing' then those that are being bribed need to find and choose a different occupation.
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