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Defunding Police Dept? by blackrams
Started on: 06-06-2020 07:58 AM
Replies: 98 (1541 views)
Last post by: cliffw on 06-30-2020 08:10 PM
maryjane
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Report this Post06-21-2020 06:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


The "blue wall" will never go away. All we can do is deal with the people we catch violating the laws and policies. The "blue wall" is human nature, a manifestation of a very primitive desire to stay out of trouble. Yes fighting this human nature is difficult but possible.
An example of this human nature that is totally accepted is defense lawyers who defend people that they know full well are guilty. The lawyers lie and manipulate the system to advance themselves and get the guilty person off the hook. To me this is a much worse "blue wall" system of lies and cover-ups because it it blatant and accepted as normal.


I understand (partially) one's desire to "keep themselves out of trouble' but remaining silent to allow poor behavior of others who have brought disgrace on the larger group of officers?
Trying to compare that kind of behavior to first politicians then lawyers actions? It's a defense attorney's job to defend their client. It is NOT a fellow officer's job to defend bad behavior of someone else.
That wall is going to come down. I probably won't live long enough to see it, but it WILL fall from within....or be torn down by outside forces, and the nation and the police forces will be better for it.

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quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


I understand (partially) one's desire to "keep themselves out of trouble' but remaining silent to allow poor behavior of others who have brought disgrace on the larger group of officers?
Trying to compare that kind of behavior to first politicians then lawyers actions? It's a defense attorney's job to defend their client. It is NOT a fellow officer's job to defend bad behavior of someone else.
That wall is going to come down. I probably won't live long enough to see it, but it WILL fall from within....or be torn down by outside forces, and the nation and the police forces will be better for it.


There is a book out, I think it is called the "green wall". It is about corruption within a prison in California and is a true story. This green wall changed California laws and procedures within the system. It came years ago and is still mentioned (not the book, but the green wall) as a lesson that we all must learn, or suffer the consequences. The "green wall" is gone, the human nature is still there, our nature is not perfect. But our human nature is everywhere.
Racism is human nature just as is sex. How long have we had laws that try to keep that stuff out of the workplace? We all know what discrimination and seal is but we seem to hear about new cases all the time.
I agree that the green wall was wrong, and I agree that the "blue wall" is wrong, but I disagree that it is as rampant as blm and antifa claim it to be.
I stand by my analogies, the desire to keep secrets that covers crimes in order to protect people (like defense lawyers) is the same, it is not their job to do so. We have laws that intended to stop such behavior, this behavior is aiding and abetting. It is a crime, but we accept it as OK behavior from lawyers, but in reality it is just as wrong. They have laws that protects that very same behavior and politicians do it too ( client confidentiality) but the opposite laws exist to prevent the culture of silence elsewhere and that is bulstered by whistleblower laws to weed out the corruption . It is absolutely just as wrong as when police do it. We just expect it from lawyers and politicians, but have a different standard for police. I am against this hypocritical standard. I believe that politicians should be held to the same standard, NOT that the culture of silence should be allowed, it should be dismantled in the police system AND in the political system.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 06-21-2020).]

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Report this Post06-21-2020 01:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

I understand (partially) one's desire to "keep themselves out of trouble' but remaining silent to allow poor behavior of others who have brought disgrace on the larger group of officers?
Trying to compare that kind of behavior to first politicians then lawyers actions? It's a defense attorney's job to defend their client. It is NOT a fellow officer's job to defend bad behavior of someone else.
That wall is going to come down. I probably won't live long enough to see it, but it WILL fall from within....or be torn down by outside forces, and the nation and the police forces will be better for it.



What you're saying, I'm reading as though you believe there is some huge conspiratorial concept whereby every officer knows what every other officer is doing, and they are standing as one to protect the bad actions of the few.

This is not at all what happens, anywhere... in really any situation. It's a fallacy that you're putting up, and a false flag. A police department, is no different in this concept than a normal private sector office that works say... market research, etc. Not everyone knows what everyone is doing.

When someone does something wrong and they get busted:

1 - It's the police chief's job to reprimand or discipline.
2 - It's the DA and prosecutor's job to prosecute and bring charges if the wrong is criminal.
3 - It is the Mayor's job to ensure the DA acts, and to ensure any changes in law and procedure need to occur.
4 - It is the Local government (Commissioners) job to push and reform laws for the Mayor to pass.

Yes, if an officer knows about a criminal wrong, and does not act or report on it appropriately, he/she is now complicit in the crime as an accessory (see steps 1-4).


... it really is that simple MJ.


In an office, some people are stealing, some people are cheating on their time sheets or time cards, or whatever... not everyone knows this. Also, you talk about public defenders. It's also the Union's job to defend their employees. A union will do whatever they can to protect their members in most cases (and more poignantly, to protect the dues), sometimes that may even mean getting officers to stand up for another officer, even when that officer was in the wrong. Don't like unions? Get rid of unions (see steps 3-4).


Respectfully... the way I'm reading you, you're suggesting there's some kind of huge conspiracy of bad cops and everyone standing by allowing this to happen. Personally, I think you're acting a bit too much like an SJW here without any facts supporting your assessment. A police organization is no different than any other organization or private company. These aren't soliders in a bunker who spend 6-8 months together in a deployment and become intimately familiar with each other... these are people who work a job and go home to their families, and occasionally have BBQs with their co-workers.


Incidentally... when the bad behavior does exist, it's almost always a culture brought on by the county Sherrif... who, in most cities, is an elected official... and usually represents the constiuency that voted him/her in there.

Metaphorically speaking, instead of blaming the Seargant, you're blaming everyone in the Squad... which I personally think is wrong.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 06-21-2020).]

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Report this Post06-21-2020 04:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Keep believing that. Keep making rationalizations. More apples to oranges comparisons that have zero merit. Keep making excuses for bad behavior.
The public's opinion of law enforcement has been changing for the last decade or so and there's a good reason for it.



(African Americans only make up 13.4% of US population, so don't say it's just a black American bias..Liberals only make up about 24% of the population so don't go there either)

(CNSNews.com) -- Polling data from 2019 show that America is "center-right" politically, with 37% describing themselves as "conservative," 35% saying they are "moderate," and only 24% stating they are "liberal."

Gallup reached its conclusions based on 21 telephone surveys encompassing over 29,000 interviews with U.S. adults.

Gallup asked, "How would you describe your political views -- very conservative, conservative, moderate, liberal or very liberal?"

In response, 37% said conservative, 35% said moderate, and 24% said liberal.

"The percentage identifying as conservative in 2019 was up two points from the 35% measured in 2018, while the percentage liberal was down two points from 26%," said Gallup.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 06-21-2020).]

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quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

Keep believing that. Keep making rationalizations. More apples to oranges comparisons that have zero merit. Keep making excuses for bad behavior.
The public's opinion of law enforcement has been changing for the last decade or so and there's a good reason for it.





Instead of OPINIONS perhaps people should be more focused on FACTS.

The actual numbers, (a/k/a FACTS), from 2019 show that unarmed whites are 2X more likely to be shot and killed by police than unarmed blacks.

https://www.wsj.com/article...e-racism-11591119883

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 06-21-2020).]

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Report this Post06-21-2020 11:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:


Instead of OPINIONS perhaps people should be more focused on FACTS.

The actual numbers, (a/k/a FACTS), from 2019 show that unarmed whites are 2X more likely to be shot and killed by police than unarmed blacks.

https://www.wsj.com/article...e-racism-11591119883



True, but not true. I heard a statistic that said white people are more likely than black people to be killed by police, BUT that is not the worst static. More white police officers are killed by black people than black people are killed by white.BUT who cares about truth anymore, we need to focus on the hot topic of the day......or years= white people are evil ESPECIALLY if they are cops.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 06-21-2020).]

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Report this Post06-22-2020 08:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

Keep believing that. Keep making rationalizations. More apples to oranges comparisons that have zero merit. Keep making excuses for bad behavior.
The public's opinion of law enforcement has been changing for the last decade or so and there's a good reason for it.

(African Americans only make up 13.4% of US population, so don't say it's just a black American bias..Liberals only make up about 24% of the population so don't go there either)

(CNSNews.com) -- Polling data from 2019 show that America is "center-right" politically, with 37% describing themselves as "conservative," 35% saying they are "moderate," and only 24% stating they are "liberal."

Gallup reached its conclusions based on 21 telephone surveys encompassing over 29,000 interviews with U.S. adults.

Gallup asked, "How would you describe your political views -- very conservative, conservative, moderate, liberal or very liberal?"

In response, 37% said conservative, 35% said moderate, and 24% said liberal.

"The percentage identifying as conservative in 2019 was up two points from the 35% measured in 2018, while the percentage liberal was down two points from 26%," said Gallup.





NOPE... you're just spouting off feelings, and literally graphics and stats about feelings.

The facts do not support your feelings, MJ. Furthermore, you keep making statements about what "I'm" supposedly doing, and repeating the same thing every time, yet I've directly refuted that. I am not defending police officers who commit crimes or do not act in accordance with law. PLEASE STOP using this as the cornerstone of your argument, and pretending like I support that. I can copy/paste every time I've re-enforced this point. We all here know that I've not said that, but you keep going back there.


The point that I've made is clear, and I'll say it again:

Why does the Police Chief, the Commissioner, the Mayor, and everyone else associated with this get a free pass? Why are YOU giving them a free pass?
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Report this Post06-22-2020 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

Keep believing that. Keep making rationalizations. More apples to oranges comparisons that have zero merit. Keep making excuses for bad behavior.
The public's opinion of law enforcement has been changing for the last decade or so and there's a good reason for it.



(African Americans only make up 13.4% of US population, so don't say it's just a black American bias..Liberals only make up about 24% of the population so don't go there either)

(CNSNews.com) -- Polling data from 2019 show that America is "center-right" politically, with 37% describing themselves as "conservative," 35% saying they are "moderate," and only 24% stating they are "liberal."

Gallup reached its conclusions based on 21 telephone surveys encompassing over 29,000 interviews with U.S. adults.

Gallup asked, "How would you describe your political views -- very conservative, conservative, moderate, liberal or very liberal?"

In response, 37% said conservative, 35% said moderate, and 24% said liberal.

"The percentage identifying as conservative in 2019 was up two points from the 35% measured in 2018, while the percentage liberal was down two points from 26%," said Gallup.




Not debating the issue but, wanted to make one point. While in college, I took a few courses in statistics and two of them involved polling. All I have to say is, a pollster can format a poll to get the desired results. The proof is in the polling data that said HRC would win. Depends on what, how and who you ask. I haven't put much faith in polls since then.

Rams
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Report this Post06-22-2020 11:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Not debating the issue but, wanted to make one point. While in college, I took a few courses in statistics and two of them involved polling. All I have to say is, a pollster can format a poll to get the desired results. The proof is in the polling data that said HRC would win. Depends on what, how and who you ask. I haven't put much faith in polls since then.

Rams


I had mentioned that the media is exacerbating this issue, but was flatly denied as a diversion.
It is a well known fact that polls can be manipulated just by framing the questions to get the answers you want or asking a targeted group of people to get the desired results. Just poll the people in chaz/chop about how they feel about police and government if you want a guaranteed negative response.
It is also a well known fact that poll results can be interpreted in such a way that they can support a view of your choice.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 06-22-2020).]

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quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


I had mentioned that the media is exacerbating this issue, but was flatly denied as a diversion.
It is a well known fact that polls can be manipulated just by framing the questions to get the answers you want or asking a targeted group of people to get the desired results. Just poll the people in chaz/chop about how they feel about police and government if you want a guaranteed negative response.
It is also a well known fact that poll results can be interpreted in such a way that they can support a view of your choice.



A "push poll" is an interactive marketing technique, most commonly employed during political campaigning, in which an individual or organization attempts to influence or alter the view of respondents under the guise of conducting a legitimate poll.

The American people seem especially susceptible to "bandwagon" propaganda. They tend to support any idea that the majority favors, because they are reluctant to swim against the current and question the orthodoxy. The orthodoxy is whatever the media declares more than once. As a result, fresh polling information from the Leftist media can be formed into a series of self-fulfilling pronouncements if they can get enough people to believe them. This is what they tried during the 2016 presidential election when they claimed for many months that Hildabeast was consistently ahead by double digits in the polls.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 06-22-2020).]

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Originally posted by randye:

A "push poll" is an interactive marketing technique, most commonly employed during political campaigning, in which an individual or organization attempts to influence or alter the view of respondents under the guise of conducting a legitimate poll.



Very interesting... I did not know this, and I even worked for a market research company...

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quote
Originally posted by MidEngineManiac:

https://amp.theguardian.com...hts-standards-report


I was unaware that American Police departments are bound to laws in Spain and England?


I also noticed that the article said that American Police have been given the authority to use deadly force...... but they failed to mention that EVERY American has the same right to use deadly force to defend themselves? Strange, it's almost as if this article is bias?

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Report this Post06-23-2020 12:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MidEngineManiacSend a Private Message to MidEngineManiacEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The point of the article is the gang of jackbooted thugs wandering around and demanding total submission and subservience, then beating the piss out of or killing anyone who shows the slightest sign of resistance or refusal.

Cops in Canada are no different.
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Originally posted by MidEngineManiac:

The point of the article is the gang of jackbooted thugs wandering around and demanding total submission and subservience, then beating the piss out of or killing anyone who shows the slightest sign of resistance or refusal.

Cops in Canada are no different.

Not that I am disagreeing with you on the fact that we in America have some bad cops. But I believe that the number of bad cops is overblown. There is no doubt that the bad cops make them all look bad, but lumping them all together is like saying all Canadians support and stand by all of prime minister Justin Trudeau's policies and beliefs. Or that all Americans are like President Donald Trump.
I also think that it is a misunderstanding to say cops are gangs who demand subservience. First you must understand that Police departments do not make the laws that govern the departments, the politicians and public do. Next you must understand that Police departmental policy is also driven by politics and public demands. The article you posted did not attack individuals who broke away from policy and procedures, it attacked the entire system of policing in America by setting up a straw man argument. The "system" of policing in America is American and setup by Americans, so I am not sure what a "jackboot" is but hopefully since you called all Americans jackboots, it must be a good thing?
I totally agree with doing our best to weed out the bad cops, but the entire system has evolved over MANY years and no doubt that it will continue to evolve,..BUT cool heads must prevail and properly debate and plan the next changes.
In California, to become a prison guard they must do 2 psychological evaluations (one written and one face to face) and a polygraph test as part of the interview process. This is an attempt to find and weed out the possible bad apples.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 06-23-2020).]

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quote
Originally posted by MidEngineManiac:

The point of the article is the gang of jackbooted thugs wandering around and demanding total submission and subservience, then beating the piss out of or killing anyone who shows the slightest sign of resistance or refusal.

Cops in Canada are no different.


[This message has been edited by randye (edited 06-23-2020).]

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Report this Post06-23-2020 07:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
NOPE... you're just spouting off feelings, and literally graphics and stats about feelings.

The facts do not support your feelings, MJ. Furthermore, you keep making statements about what "I'm" supposedly doing, and repeating the same thing every time, yet I've directly refuted that. I am not defending police officers who commit crimes or do not act in accordance with law. PLEASE STOP using this as the cornerstone of your argument, and pretending like I support that. I can copy/paste every time I've re-enforced this point. We all here know that I've not said that, but you keep going back there.


The point that I've made is clear, and I'll say it again:

Why does the Police Chief, the Commissioner, the Mayor, and everyone else associated with this get a free pass? Why are YOU giving them a free pass?

I do NOT give any of them a 'free pass'. Go back and look at what I had to say about the City and County of LA and especially Chief Beck in regards to the shot up pickup truck and the 8-10 officers involved in that fiasco that cost the taxpayer millions of $$. I put the blame equally on the officers and their chief and IMO, the chief should have lost his job, as should all the officers involved.

But in the end, it's about personal choices and personal responsibility. Each and everyone of us knows right from wrong and each and everyone of us is 100% responsible for our actions and reactions. We do things because we CHOSE to. That "everyone else (or someone esle) is doing it" is for little children.

Some of you, have become LIBERALS. If this were any other demographic's or individual's bad behavior being discussed and someone tried to divert the blame on to "society", or to try to spread it around to other people or groups, each and every one of you would laugh at it, and point out it was the individual or group's fault and not that of society. Seen it dozens of times here.

Someone does something wrong in the private sector and people on the left say it's mostly a result of decades of discrimination or bias, or (something, anything, everything else but the actor)
But conservatives here in OT would (and have) said:
"No, no, NO!..it's not because of bad parenting, poor supervision, racial or any other bias against them (him) , NOT because of poor education access or discrimination in the job market, NOT because of peer pressure, NOT because of the media...IT"S HIS fault because HE CHOSE TO DO IT!"

Nobody gets a 'free pass' but none of the people or entities you mentioned forced police officers to act badly. NONE!
You can't on one hand say you don't support bad cops, but on the other try to spread the blame around to other people or try to divert the narrative to someone else. THAT, is a liberal's pathway and you know it.

The irony drips thickly in this thread

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 06-23-2020).]

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Report this Post06-25-2020 11:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

I do NOT give any of them a 'free pass'. Go back and look at what I had to say about the City and County of LA and especially Chief Beck in regards to the shot up pickup truck and the 8-10 officers involved in that fiasco that cost the taxpayer millions of $$. I put the blame equally on the officers and their chief and IMO, the chief should have lost his job, as should all the officers involved.

But in the end, it's about personal choices and personal responsibility. Each and everyone of us knows right from wrong and each and everyone of us is 100% responsible for our actions and reactions. We do things because we CHOSE to. That "everyone else (or someone esle) is doing it" is for little children.

Some of you, have become LIBERALS. If this were any other demographic's or individual's bad behavior being discussed and someone tried to divert the blame on to "society", or to try to spread it around to other people or groups, each and every one of you would laugh at it, and point out it was the individual or group's fault and not that of society. Seen it dozens of times here.

Someone does something wrong in the private sector and people on the left say it's mostly a result of decades of discrimination or bias, or (something, anything, everything else but the actor)
But conservatives here in OT would (and have) said:
"No, no, NO!..it's not because of bad parenting, poor supervision, racial or any other bias against them (him) , NOT because of poor education access or discrimination in the job market, NOT because of peer pressure, NOT because of the media...IT"S HIS fault because HE CHOSE TO DO IT!"

Nobody gets a 'free pass' but none of the people or entities you mentioned forced police officers to act badly. NONE!
You can't on one hand say you don't support bad cops, but on the other try to spread the blame around to other people or try to divert the narrative to someone else. THAT, is a liberal's pathway and you know it.

The irony drips thickly in this thread




Sorry MJ, I like you, but your post is basically ridiculous. We are essentially in agreement, but you're just virtual signaling here.
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Report this Post06-30-2020 08:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwClick Here to Email cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by randye:
A "push poll" is an interactive marketing technique, ...


 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Very interesting... I did not know this, and I even worked for a market research company...


Heh. Todd I had never heard of one either.

Today I see this request ...
 
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