There are consequences/reactions/results to every action and decision. There will be people regretting some of their actions/decisions over all this. Personally speaking, I believe the people of Seattle are in deep doo doo but, we get the government we vote for.
Want to have your own country, cut all ties to the former country. That would include electricity, sewers, water, food and of course, government assistance to include policing.
Well said. I keep hearing "they need more training..."
No..they need different training.
I am absolutely 100% against a 'National Police Force' but 100% in favor of a standardized code of conduct for every law enforcement agency, individual, and LEO group in the country. One that is enforceable and carries punishment, ('similar' to The Uniform Code of Military Justice)
Nothing that has happened in the last 30 days surprises me one bit...I've seen it all play out several times before thru the decades. Very little has really changed in the last 4-5 decades in regards to society/police relationships and certainly $$$$ won't change one bit of it. If we as a people and as a govt has to 'bribe' people to 'do the right thing' then those that are being bribed need to find and choose a different occupation.
I keep hearing about American having a "systematic racism" problem. I disagree 100%, America is not racist but like ALL Countries on Earth we have some racists. I have said in an earlier post that we will not get rid of a "culture of silence" because it is human nature,.. in the same way (as wrong as it is and as awful as it is) we will not get rid of racism, it is an emotion. We can attempt to lessen the effects of those them but not completely stamp them out. BUT they are not THE problem with Law Enforcement or America. A bigger problem with America is corrupt politics. Lies and scandals, untrustworthy people who have no accountability for their actions. It is a travesty that the policies that govern Police Departments come from people who are them selves incapable of living up to the standards they impose on others. Another problem with America is that we have just as low of an ethical code for the media whose job is to inform us of "news". Between politicians and news reporters (anyone in the industry) how many can you think of that are put in prison or fired for horrible performance?
Law Enforcement and racism are not the problem with America, we can deal with those people our real problems are going completely unchecked exactly like the Seattle situation.
Metaphorically speaking Seattle represents America antifia represents the corrupt politicians and mainstream media and black lives matter represent racism. And they have the nerve to tell us we're the ones screwing up
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 06-12-2020).]
History, has shown that "we"cannot (or will not) "deal with those problems".
The news reporter thing..it's a red herring...apples to oranges...a "don't look here..look over there' kind of thing that has no bearing or relation to what is going on with law enforcement and public perception of law enforcement, and currently, 'Fake News' is not a crime, but there have been many instances where unscrupulous reporting has led to the firing and news sector public ostracization of those who do it. Dan Rathher, Bill O'Rielly, Mika Brzezinski, Janet Blair, Jason Cooke, Brian Williams just to name a few. And, it was their fellow journalists most of the time that led to their demise and/or disciplinary actions.
It's one thing for a person to commit a crime or act unethically...another altogether for those who know about it to remain silent. Police complain loudly and often that witnesses in the civilian community won't come forward, yet they themselves are guilty of the same thing. In the military, bringing discredit to the uniform, service branch or unit is among the most hated and despicable acts a service member can involve themselves in and it just isn't tolerated..not by UCMJ and not by their fellow service members. We take seriously "To Keep our Honor Clean".
It's coming as well to law enforcement. Either thru different training and a change of attitude withrank and file law enforcement or it will be forced upon them by outside forces (local/state/federal political mandates). The old ways' days are numbered and I say "Good damn riddance".
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 06-12-2020).]
With the powers that be letting this stuff happen, what is concerning is the type of things that could be happening just out of sight. If letting this get the way it is, is another distraction, and maybe a tool at the same time.
Metaphorically speaking Seattle represents America antifia represents the corrupt politicians and mainstream media and black lives matter represent racism. And they have the nerve to tell us we're the ones screwing up
Camden, the beacon of liberalism and the murder capital of the world, disbanded its police department back in 2012, because it ran out of money and it was a budget decision. It wasn't a decision to allow the ghetto to have free reign over the city and to extort and exploit people of European decent.
So what happened? Well the county created a police force in its place. They hired practically every officer that was laid-off and hired an additional 100 officers, which was basically double what Camden police force was.
As a result, crime went down because of MORE POLICE on the streets of Camden.
My work is done!
[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 06-14-2020).]
History, has shown that "we"cannot (or will not) "deal with those problems".
The news reporter thing..it's a red herring...apples to oranges...a "don't look here..look over there' kind of thing that has no bearing or relation to what is going on with law enforcement and public perception of law enforcement, and currently, 'Fake News' is not a crime, but there have been many instances where unscrupulous reporting has led to the firing and news sector public ostracization of those who do it. Dan Rathher, Bill O'Rielly, Mika Brzezinski, Janet Blair, Jason Cooke, Brian Williams just to name a few. And, it was their fellow journalists most of the time that led to their demise and/or disciplinary actions.
It's one thing for a person to commit a crime or act unethically...another altogether for those who know about it to remain silent. Police complain loudly and often that witnesses in the civilian community won't come forward, yet they themselves are guilty of the same thing. In the military, bringing discredit to the uniform, service branch or unit is among the most hated and despicable acts a service member can involve themselves in and it just isn't tolerated..not by UCMJ and not by their fellow service members. We take seriously "To Keep our Honor Clean".
It's coming as well to law enforcement. Either thru different training and a change of attitude withrank and file law enforcement or it will be forced upon them by outside forces (local/state/federal political mandates). The old ways' days are numbered and I say "Good damn riddance".
Wow! THAT should be on every billboard across America!
Listen, I'm a moron, and even I get it! It's perfect!
Well done, good sir, well done!
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 06-14-2020).]
Those who wish to defund the police and blame them for every social issue out there should walk a mile in a LEO's shoes. That's not to suggest the police are always right and don't screw up, nor does it suggest there aren't LEOs with issues. More, better or different training maybe the answer or better selection criteria while recruiting. I don't pretend to have all the answers but, this I know, every cop, fire fighter and EMT wants to go home at the end of their shift.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 06-14-2020).]
It's one thing for a person to commit a crime or act unethically...another altogether for those who know about it to remain silent. Police complain loudly and often that witnesses in the civilian community won't come forward, yet they themselves are guilty of the same thing. In the military, bringing discredit to the uniform, service branch or unit is among the most hated and despicable acts a service member can involve themselves in and it just isn't tolerated..not by UCMJ and not by their fellow service members. We take seriously "To Keep our Honor Clean".
It's coming as well to law enforcement. Either thru different training and a change of attitude withrank and file law enforcement or it will be forced upon them by outside forces (local/state/federal political mandates). The old ways' days are numbered and I say "Good damn riddance".
All could be true and you may have the answer but, I would hesitate to have the federal government dictate a federal mandate for law enforcement. Those powers should be left to the individual states to set their own standards. What works in Texas may not be workable in NY, CA or MS. But, there may be room for a "National Standard" of law enforcement that states have the option of meeting. The Feds could use money to get states to comply, similar to highway speeds. I see this as a "States Rights" issue.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 06-14-2020).]
All could be true and you may have the answer but, I would hesitate to have the federal government dictate a federal mandate for law enforcement. Those powers should be left to the individual states to set their own standards.
because that has worked so very well all these decades for all Americans....
The links you posted are examples of crimes committed by police officers and military. Everything done in both of these links was illegal then, and is illegal today. Federal guidelines for police training and procedures would not have made a difference in either of these cases, because what they did was already illegal anyway.
I'm certainly not saying that some kind of reform isn't a good solution to the the frustration, but your point here had no bearing on the argument. I'm of the mindset that there are some things that can be mandated as "off-limits," like the choke-hold that's more or less killed 2 or 3 people we already know of, but we don't know if what happened was because of race, or if it was just because those individual officers are idiots.
What we DO know is that China, Russia, and Iran are all exploiting our social media platforms by spreading propaganda to purposely get people to fight, and destabilize this country. We also know that much of the damage and the rioting (even much of the organization of the protests to begin with), has been organized and funded by foreign adversaries through groups such as ANTIFA.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: The links you posted are examples of crimes committed by police officers and military. Everything done in both of these links was illegal then, and is illegal today. Federal guidelines for police training and procedures would not have made a difference in either of these cases, because what they did was already illegal anyway.
Agreed, under no circumstances will every LEO be a perfect cop. One can only address those who violate the law. No one promised anyone a rose garden.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 06-14-2020).]
Agreed, under no circumstances will erevry LEO be a perfect cop. One can only address those who violate the law. No one promised anyone a rose garden.
Rams
It's also really important to recognize that the police departments are generally only following the orders of the politicians which give them. That doesn't excuse situations like Floyd, and it doesn't excuse the situation with Freddy Grey, but in the case of Freddy Grey... the police involvement never would have happened, had the politicians not mandated that the police provide enforcement to prevent people from selling "loose" cigarettes.
In the case of one of MJ's links, where Texas Rangers shot 17 people in a line-up... that most certainly involved a politician. It doesn't make it right... following orders that are horrible... but the politicians *always* get away with it.
that most certainly involved a politician. It doesn't make it right... following orders that are horrible... but the politicians *always* get away with it.
quote
It's also really important to recognize that the police departments are generally only following the orders of the politicians which give them.
Ah yes....the Nuremberg defense: "Ah wuz just following orders..." and, Similar to Rick's deflection post regarding the media and poor reporting, the underlined is nothing more than yet another red fish and another attempt to blame someone other than the police and their decades old culture of 'acceptance' of wrong doing.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 06-14-2020).]
Ah yes....the Nuremberg defense: "Ah wuz just following orders..." and, Similar to Rick's deflection post regarding the media and poor reporting, the underlined is nothing more than yet another red fish and another attempt to blame someone other than the police and their decades old culture of 'acceptance' of wrong doing.
I highly respect your opinion Don, but I am a bit set back by this one. First, to be a deflection I would have to some way be attempting to defend something. What do you think I am attempting to divert attention away from in order to defend it? I believe that there are some bad people in EVERY profession without exemptions or exceptions. I blame human nature. As far as media goes I stand by what I said because I believe it to be absolutely true that the media does have the power to influence the masses. An example of that is the propaganda wing the Germany and the advertising of products that attempt to influence us to spend money. Our human nature allows for us to be easily manipulated weather we knowit or not.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 06-15-2020).]
Ah yes....the Nuremberg defense: "Ah wuz just following orders..." and, Similar to Rick's deflection post regarding the media and poor reporting, the underlined is nothing more than yet another red fish and another attempt to blame someone other than the police and their decades old culture of 'acceptance' of wrong doing.
Even though you quoted it, you've completely ignored that I said it's not right. The point I was making, since you reference the Nuremberg trials, is... at the end of WW2, Hitler died in his bunker after committing suicide so the allied forces couldn't kill him. Now, I'm not going to suggest we need to kill the politicians, but perhaps you can explain to me why the politicians continue to get away with it, when they're the ones directly responsible for giving the orders to the police departments that call for that kind of action?
Ah yes....the Nuremberg defense: "Ah wuz just following orders..." and, Similar to Rick's deflection post regarding the media and poor reporting, the underlined is nothing more than yet another red fish and another attempt to blame someone other than the police and their decades old culture of 'acceptance' of wrong doing.
I am not sure why I didn't mention this in the previous post but the horrible and scandalous, misleading and outright lies told by the media about Police and Laws is that they are racist or their favorite term is systemic racism. This lie is told so many times that people believe it. No law targets black people and only racist people target people. Racists come in all colors and so do the victims. No Law Enforcement agencies target or train to target black people. This is why I can't support blm, they assume that LEO's target black people and laws are designed to target black people. Such assumptions are nothing short of bigotry, prejudices and racist. But they go even further and say America is racist. With such a broad brush, NOTHING they say can be taken seriously believed. They have no credibility. Yes the media has blood on their hands, that is undeniable and any attempt to say otherwise is a deflection.
Let's have all police cash in their weapons. Guns and Tasers. Use that money to purchase a smartphone for each officer. Sell off the high-performance vehicles they use for pursuit and fast ETA at a robbery, rape, or beating. Purchase Kia Rios. After all, they won't be transporting any criminals or chasing them, so a Rio should suffice.
When they arrive on the scene of a crime, observe from the sidelines, and utilize the latest smartphone to videotape the incident. Then charge a records fee for requests from the victim or attorneys, as is done for copies of traffic accident reports, etc.
We had another one here a few days ago. Some girl was having a meltdown over a missed period or something and cops ended up showing up.
Long story short, the boyfriend said mother****er in his own home. He ended up with a broken face and she has a broken foot.
These assholes for the past 30-plus years have been getting more and more of a "Judge Dread" attitude. The are cop. They are judge. They are jury. And they are executioner.
They will, with impunity, beat the **** out of or kill anyone they please for whatever displeasures them. Individual rights, freedoms and civil liberties are non-existant.
Personally, I say defend the cops and hire the hell's angels to do the job. Crime **** would stop real quick and it would be a fast end to this police-state crap.
Personally, I say defend the cops and hire the hell's angels to do the job. Crime **** would stop real quick and it would be a fast end to this police-state crap.
Even though you quoted it, you've completely ignored that I said it's not right. The point I was making, since you reference the Nuremberg trials, is... at the end of WW2, Hitler died in his bunker after committing suicide so the allied forces couldn't kill him. Now, I'm not going to suggest we need to kill the politicians, but perhaps you can explain to me why the politicians continue to get away with it, when they're the ones directly responsible for giving the orders to the police departments that call for that kind of action?
I did not ignore, I gave it all the attention that was warranted. It was an attempt to deflect blame off on to someone else, plain and simple and you are continuing to try to. Politicians do what politicians do, but it's up to the rest of us to weed out the wrong of it and do the right of it. It is your right to say anything you wish, but that doesn't mean I or anyone else is going to follow you down that primrose path.
We had another one here a few days ago. Some girl was having a meltdown over a missed period or something and cops ended up showing up.
Long story short, the boyfriend said mother****er in his own home. He ended up with a broken face and she has a broken foot.
These assholes for the past 30-plus years have been getting more and more of a "Judge Dread" attitude. The are cop. They are judge. They are jury. And they are executioner.
They will, with impunity, beat the **** out of or kill anyone they please for whatever displeasures them. Individual rights, freedoms and civil liberties are non-existant.
Personally, I say defend the cops and hire the hell's angels to do the job. Crime **** would stop real quick and it would be a fast end to this police-state crap.
Domestic disputes are statistically the most dangerous calls Police get called out for. Tempers flare and rage, they are already at a boiling point before the Police show up.
I did not ignore, I gave it all the attention that was warranted. It was an attempt to deflect blame off on to someone else, plain and simple and you are continuing to try to. Politicians do what politicians do, but it's up to the rest of us to weed out the wrong of it and do the right of it. It is your right to say anything you wish, but that doesn't mean I or anyone else is going to follow you down that primrose path.
Nope, I kind of feel like you're trying to be an SJW here. We can all clearly tell when bad things are bad. I'm definitely not "deflecting blame." Someone commits a crime, it's wrong... and they should be punished ... duh. But the people who give the order, should ALSO be punished and called out for it. That's my point. In many cases, the police are put into a situation *BECAUSE* they've been obligated to because of a stupid law or a stupid order. They defend this order, and when something goes wrong (or the order itself was bad to begin with), the police get punished. Sure... I think we can all agree they should be. BUT... the politicians always spin it some ridiculous way and are never held accountable.
For example...
The police officer that killed George Floyd... he had NUMEROUS instances of similar behavior. The Police Chief in this case was a Democrat, never got called out for it, and when similar things had come up, Amy Klobachar was given a free pass as well and the media won't talk about it.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Nope, I kind of feel like you're trying to be an SJW here. We can all clearly tell when bad things are bad. I'm definitely not "deflecting blame." Someone commits a crime, it's wrong... and they should be punished ... duh. But the people who give the order, should ALSO be punished and called out for it. That's my point. In many cases, the police are put into a situation *BECAUSE* they've been obligated to because of a stupid law or a stupid order. They defend this order, and when something goes wrong (or the order itself was bad to begin with), the police get punished. Sure... I think we can all agree they should be. BUT... the politicians always spin it some ridiculous way and are never held accountable.
For example...
The police officer that killed George Floyd... he had NUMEROUS instances of similar behavior. The Police Chief in this case was a Democrat, never got called out for it, and when similar things had come up, Amy Klobachar was given a free pass as well and the media won't talk about it.
I am in agreement 100%. Officers do what they are told to if they are professionals. Sometimes the line between right and wrong is not as clear as 20/20 hind sight.
And my point is and always has been, that it is not the police chief or public politicions fault nearly as much as it is the rank and file that see what goes on every day but remain silent about it. That Blue Wall of Silence. I have stated that here in OT for years.
And my point is and always has been, that it is not the police chief or public politicions fault nearly as much as it is the rank and file that see what goes on every day but remain silent about it. That Blue Wall of Silence. I have stated that here in OT for years.
That is the way I understand it. We can’t begin to correct a problem until we understand it.
The overuse and consequential misuse of the phrase “systemic racism” is causing the focus to be misdirected. I think we would be better served if we were to describe it as endemic.
The problem is not systemic. Overall, the system works. It just needs a few tweaks here and there. The problem is in some of the people. We need to identify them and either correct them or remove them from the position of authority.
However, allowing the condition to persist indicates a problem somewhere in the chain of command.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 06-19-2020).]
The problem is not systemic. Overall, the system works.
Whenever you hear a Leftist proclaim "systemic ___________" you can be certain that their real intent is not to fix something but to destroy it completely.
As proof of my point, I offer the conspicuous absence of any "FIX THE POLICE" protest signs.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 06-19-2020).]
Whenever you hear a Leftist proclaim "systemic ___________" you can be certain that their real intent is not to fix something but to destroy it completely.
As proof of my point, I offer the conspicuous absence of any "FIX THE POLICE" protest signs.
Incidentally, whenever I hear a leftist claim that a Republican "MIGHT" be guilty of something, or they fear a Republican could end up doing something bad... invariably, the Democrats not only are already guilty of it themselves, it's usually in excess.
And my point is and always has been, that it is not the police chief or public politicions fault nearly as much as it is the rank and file that see what goes on every day but remain silent about it. That Blue Wall of Silence. I have stated that here in OT for years.
The "blue wall" will never go away. All we can do is deal with the people we catch violating the laws and policies. The "blue wall" is human nature, a manifestation of a very primitive desire to stay out of trouble. Yes fighting this human nature is difficult but possible. An example of this human nature that is totally accepted is defense lawyers who defend people that they know full well are guilty. The lawyers lie and manipulate the system to advance themselves and get the guilty person off the hook. To me this is a much worse "blue wall" system of lies and cover-ups because it it blatant and accepted as normal.
The "blue wall" will never go away. All we can do is deal with the people we catch violating the laws and policies. The "blue wall" is human nature, a manifestation of a very primitive desire to stay out of trouble. Yes fighting this human nature is difficult but possible. An example of this human nature that is totally accepted is defense lawyers who defend people that they know full well are guilty. The lawyers lie and manipulate the system to advance themselves and get the guilty person off the hook. To me this is a much worse "blue wall" system of lies and cover-ups because it it blatant and accepted as normal.
Well, that brings up a totally different but similar subject. I've never met a lawyer I really trusted and since most politicians are lawyers, that might be some of the reason I don't trust politicians.
Well, that brings up a totally different but similar subject. I've never met a lawyer I really trusted and since most politicians are lawyers, that might be some of the reason I don't trust politicians.
Rams
Have you ever been in a union that's the same thing also. They say they were about the safety and protection of the membership but behind closed doors they conspired to save the jobs of people that should have been fired. Human nature is everywhere there is no cure for it.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 06-20-2020).]
Have you ever been in a union that's the same thing also. They say they were about the safety and protection of the membership but behind closed doors they conspired to save the jobs of people that should have been fired. Human nature is everywhere there is no cure for it.
I have never (personally) been a member of a Union but, I have sat across the table from Union leadership many times. I was always on the management side, I really don't mind unions if, they have decent leadership. The problem is, just like politicians, they go into office with good intentions and end up taking care of themselves and their "friends", not the union as a whole many times.
I have never (personally) been a member of a Union but, I have sat across the table from Union leadership many times. I was always on the management side, I really don't mind unions if, they have decent leadership. The problem is, just like politicians, they go into office with good intentions and end up taking care of themselves and their "friends", not the union as a whole many times.
