Based on responses, I get it now, most people are weak and useless. Maybe 20% have not missed a day of work, we are carrying the weight of keeping the world running as best we can. My wife and i both are more than before. Trump says we can not stay home, we need to get back to living and Dr. Fauci says keep the world shut down because someone might die from the virus(little exaggerate). People are dying from other things, most people of working age will not get horribly sick, we need materials and infrastructure to keep things moving. I am shocked at the level of panic, fear , and desire to keep the country shutdown. We are not all living in a petri dish bee hive high rise in metro New York City, why the fear? Look around, we are seeing pareto principle in effect and the productive are carrying the load as best they can and many(NOT ALL) of the not working must believe they have limited contribution. Yes, all is collapsing and we desperately need so many more back into the marketplace, we can do it with masks, some distancing, some modified work places, and just doing what we gotta do. Old and sick will also have to follow their own plan.
Originally posted by FriendGregory: I am shocked at the level of panic, fear , and desire to keep the country shutdown. We are not all living in a petri dish bee hive high rise in metro New York City, why the fear?
Waiting on the feedback. When I mentioned that fear of the virus or results of contracting the COVID 19 virus were the reason many started paying attention, I heard about it. I still think fear is what drove many to actually start wearing face masks and following social distancing guidance. The media and Democratic leadership have done their best to keep folks at home and out of work all the while trying to blame the Trump administration for the Pandemic and the situation the country is in.
I whole heartedly agree that this country needs to get back to work and I am concerned our economy may take a generation to recover without good leadership. I am in that group that is at most risk, I do believe we should be following CDC guidance but, this country has to get back to work. We are the children and grandchildren of the "Greatest Generation" and acting like we are the children of the Three Stooges.
Speaking of the Three Stooges, Pelosi, Schumer and Biden are running a close second. I sure hope we don't see them in re-runs.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-14-2020).]
I had pretty much this same "discussion " on a farcebook group earlier today. I quit the group in disgust.
These people (and I use the term loosely ) are governed by fear, enthralled with their "hero worship " of those still working, and more concerned with political correctness and "banned words" than they are with anything resembling practical.
Some kids 2 towns over called some other kids a nasty name (don't matter which one ) and within 15 minutes every leftist social -justice wack job was crawling out of the woodwork with all thoughts of a measured reopening forgotten. They had a social cause to attack.
Really, their only interest is somebody is offended, and organizing drive-by parades for their own feelings of doing something.
In a county of 100,000 we have had 108 cases total, with 69 of those in the same bunkhouse at a greenhouse, and one death very early on. One.
I'm authentically essential. Today, I had to go into a meat packing plant where there were over 600 COVID-1984 cases. Was I afraid? Hell No!
I do my job, I work, I'm not taking vacation, not giving any excuses, not afraid and running towards the fire like firefighters do. Not waiting or begging for a stimulus check or hazardous pay.
I agree with you Gregory. The 20% are keeping everything going, but we have been doing that all along.
They are getting 2k/mo to sit home (basically a regular paycheck ) plus making bank at whatever s8de-gig they have come up with. There is one hell of a lot of people who are going to be worse off when things are normal again so they are in no hurry to get there.
They are getting 2k/mo to sit home (basically a regular paycheck ) plus making bank at whatever s8de-gig they have come up with. There is one hell of a lot of people who are going to be worse off when things are normal again so they are in no hurry to get there.
A couple of old sayings come to mind. I'm from the government, I'm here to help and be careful what you wish for, it may come true.
Apply either or both as applicable. Politicians are not necessarily your friends. When getting re-elected is their highest goal and leaving office richer than when they arrived, your future interests may not matter. They only look up to the next election.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-15-2020).]
The Corona virus has shown a blinding light on who we are as a species. How we really see & think about ourselves, and others.
It seems our value as individual human beings is not intrinsic. It's conditionary.
We have become so dependent on each others "production" (civilized), that that's all we see each other as. Each a piece of a means to our own ends. All "Working as hard as I do".
In short, those that don't produce (satisfactorily to the eyes of others) have less human value to those of us that do.
Some will even see this (virus) in their hearts as a great way to solve the homeless problem. Less handouts & cleaner streets.
"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"?
If Jesus showed up tomorrow I wonder if we would even recognize him at all...or just instantly condemn him as just another one of those homeless/unemployed hippy socialists more concerned with feelings than finances...
The Corona virus has shown a blinding light on who we are as a species. How we really see & think about ourselves, and others.
It seems our value as individual human beings is not intrinsic. It's conditionary.
We have become so dependent on each others "production" (civilized), that that's all we see each other as. Each a piece of a means to our own ends. All "Working as hard as I do".
In short, those that don't produce (satisfactorily to the eyes of others) have less human value to those of us that do.
Some will even see this (virus) in their hearts as a great way to solve the homeless problem. Less handouts & cleaner streets.
"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"?
If Jesus showed up tomorrow I wonder if we would even recognize him at all...or just instantly condemn him as just another one of those homeless/unemployed hippy socialists more concerned with feelings than finances...
Assuming you've pulled your own weight as I have, you have the right to decide who you wish to help and I guess you can judge how ever you wish. Just as I can and have. You do not have the right to decide who I or anyone else supports although, you can condemn till the cows come home. While I do support certain charities, I do not believe in handouts to those who won't pull their share of the load. I also won't support those that refuse to follow the rule of law nor those that peddle influence.
Condemn whatever and whoever you wish but, I don't recommend throwing stones while living in a glass house.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-15-2020).]
The Corona virus has shown a blinding light on who we are as a species. How we really see & think about ourselves, and others.
It seems our value as individual human beings is not intrinsic. It's conditionary.
We have become so dependent on each others "production" (civilized), that that's all we see each other as. Each a piece of a means to our own ends. All "Working as hard as I do".
In short, those that don't produce (satisfactorily to the eyes of others) have less human value to those of us that do.
Some will even see this (virus) in their hearts as a great way to solve the homeless problem. Less handouts & cleaner streets.
"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"?
If Jesus showed up tomorrow I wonder if we would even recognize him at all...or just instantly condemn him as just another one of those homeless/unemployed hippy socialists more concerned with feelings than finances...
You make a good point. It does take a million people to make a pencil. But about the value of a human life? That is no real answer to that. Currently we seem to calculate that based on economic and productivity terms. Life Insurance for example. Not for sure if that is right or wrong way to value a human life.
But we all will have three deaths eventually. 1) When we die, 2) When they bury / cremate you. 3) When there is no one else around to remember you or speak of your name.
The Corona virus has shown a blinding light on who we are as a species. How we really see & think about ourselves, and others.
It seems our value as individual human beings is not intrinsic. It's conditionary.
We have become so dependent on each others "production" (civilized), that that's all we see each other as. Each a piece of a means to our own ends. All "Working as hard as I do".
In short, those that don't produce (satisfactorily to the eyes of others) have less human value to those of us that do.
Some will even see this (virus) in their hearts as a great way to solve the homeless problem. Less handouts & cleaner streets.
"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"?
If Jesus showed up tomorrow I wonder if we would even recognize him at all...or just instantly condemn him as just another one of those homeless/unemployed hippy socialists more concerned with feelings than finances...
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I'd like to have a serious discussion about why you feel the way you do.
You're insinuating that, because people want to re-open the economy, that they somehow do not care about people dying or getting sick. Am I incorrect in that assumption? I believe you've said as such.
So let's look at the math. 800% increase on 129 per day. That comes out to 1,032 per day. Let's just say 1 month... since scientifically, it would be unfair to include the entire past 2 months of lock-down. That means there have been over 30,000+ deaths (very conservatively) due to the lock-down alone. We know the number of deaths due to Corona virus have been somewhat exaggerated (truthfully), since they've been ordered to label every death involved with COVID-19 a Corona virus death. Second, these deaths occurred (anyway) under the lock-down, so you can hardly say this has anything to do with people not caring.
For very specific information, this website here: https://github.com/dsbc2020...Examples/coronavirus ... was developed by a group of Math PhDs. They've created this website WITHOUT any bias whatsoever. Some of the information you would enjoy using to spread your liberal propaganda, and some of it debunks it. Use it as you wish.
Second, I want to discuss what your qualifications are to "judge" the rest of the world. I don't need a list from you, but I'd like to ask all the times you've donated time and money. All the times you've volunteered to help your neighbors, as you say others do not. I'd like to know how you think you're in the position to look down on others and judge / question their motives when (at least from my perspective), I'm not so sure you live up to the same righteous standard you presume to project on others.
In the end, Capitalism (free market society) has lifted more people out of poverty than any concept in the history of this planet, including Jesus Christ and Christianity himself (and I apologize for saying this). For that matter, every Christian-sponsored charity is, matter of fact, funded off the backs of wealth gained through Capitalism. Capitalism... e.g., getting people back to work... is what we need. We can follow simple guidelines to help prevent the spread of the virus while not destroying that which makes this country great. This country didn't simply become what it was by happenstance. The United States became the country that it is through a free market, and preventing people from working outright is causing more harm than good.
I know you don't like Trump. You're entitled to your opinion. But I strongly believe you are in no position to be judging everyone else in the manner that you are. People want to get back to work. Charity and good deeds occur by people working and donating money, or their time on the weekends. Not by people who sit at home smoking pot all day.
I'm trying to type this on a phone so bear with me.
When it comes to money /reward and actual work, I think the vast majority of the population has a YUGE mental disconnect. They have internally separated the 2.
It comes from.... computers. 3 factors. Thanks to social media they read about investing and money for nothing all day everyday. Not a day goes by that they don't see something about how well someone is living for doing basically nothing. They have lost the idea there is real work behind the money.
The second is gaming. Every single game out there uses some form of currency as a reward system. And great gob piles of it. After 40 years of it they have at a very basic level lost the connection between hard to earn (real world) money and easy to get (fantasy game ) money. The line between the 2 had blurred and they have become one and the same. It's nature for most humans to take the easy way. That's why we invented the wheel and keep inventing Better machines to do the work for us.
Third is the rise of the free stuff-throw away culture. When most of us grew up the only way you were getting a free couch or clothes was to personally know someone getting rid of them. Now, gives me 3 tanks of gas and a month, and I can build a whole wardrobe and furnish a house off of internet giveaways. People can eat well for 2-3 weeks of the month off of food banks all found online. The pressing need to earn well has been diminished because there are easier alternatives. It's also led to a culture where they can spend nearly 100% of what they do earn /recieve on wants, because the needs can be gotten easily for free.
I can't linger over it right now, but one observation comes to mind: the stress that Covid-19 has inflicted on hospitals and health care workers, from EMTs all the way to doctors and nurses. It's not so much about how many people, overall, are affected by the virus to the extent of going to an ER or hospital admittance, but how many such people in a given area and in the same short window of time. That is why Covid-19 has been such a "game changer." And that's why I can't just line up behind the idea of "Reopening" without any guardrails.
In other words, the "Flattening of the Curve" objective of the various social distancing and shutdown strategies.
Even if you single out New York City and the surrounding area as an outlier, in terms of population density, and look at smaller cities and towns all across the country... so there's not so much population or population density as with NYC. But there are fewer hospitals (compared to New York City) that are regional, and fewer hospital beds.
Does the GitHub material go into that aspect of it?
I can't linger over it right now, but one observation comes to mind: the stress that Covid-19 has inflicted on hospitals and health care workers, from EMTs all the way to doctors and nurses. It's not so much about how many people, overall, are affected by the virus to the extent of going to an ER or hospital admittance, but how many such people in a given area and in the same short window of time. That is why Covid-19 has been such a "game changer." And that's why I can't just line up behind the idea of "Reopening" without any guardrails.
In other words, the "Flattening of the Curve" objective of the various social distancing and shutdown strategies.
Even if you single out New York City and the surrounding area as an outlier, in terms of population density, and look at smaller cities and towns all across the country... so there's not so much population or population density as with NYC. But there are fewer hospitals (compared to New York City) that are regional, and fewer hospital beds.
Does the GitHub material go into that aspect of it?
It is math heavy, so going into too much detail begins to make my brain hurt. In my degree program, I only had to get to Calculus 2, and I was done... haven't touched math like that in almost a decade, thank God. The link is from a friend of a friend. The people who put this together are very science and statistics based... primarily AI, Machine Learning, etc. They come from a variety of backgrounds... ultra liberal to ultra conservative. But they are scientists first. So the stats on here are about as accurate and specific as you're going to get. So... if you can muster through it, there's really pertinent stuff on here. Not even suggesting it backs up any of my opinions since I haven't really gone through much of it... but there's a lot of detail here.
Originally posted by rinselberg: ... one observation comes to mind: the stress that Covid-19 has inflicted on hospitals and health care workers, from EMTs all the way to doctors and nurses.
What stress ? Where does it come from ? I could see stress from something you are not trained for. The death count for hospital workers and other health care workers ? I have not heard of one Covid19 death.
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg: And that's why I can't just line up behind the idea of "Reopening" without any guardrails.
What can be done ? More and more, people are demanding freedom. When the liberal communities refuse to open, it's residents are pissed for one, and spending their money in the conservative territories. The liberal politicians are paying attention. Worried about votes and lost tax revenue.
We can't shut down city or State borders. The virus will spread to the uninfected areas. I say open it everywhere, completely. Quit pretending guidelines are mandates. Teach people how to protect themselves and not depend on others to protect them. If you are in a crosswalk and the sign says Walk, look both ways anyway.
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg: ... if you single out New York City and the surrounding area as an outlier, in terms of population density, and look at smaller cities and towns all across the country... so there's not so much population or population density as with NYC. But there are fewer hospitals (compared to New York City) that are regional, and fewer hospital beds.
Heh. The worry was a lack of beds where there were more hospitals.
Originally posted by cliffw: What stress? Where does it come from? I could see stress from something you are not trained for. The death count for hospital workers and other health care workers? I have not heard of one Covid19 death.
I'm just going to respond to that one.
This is from May 3, so two weeks back before today:
quote
In the past two months, more than 9,000 US healthcare workers have contracted the coronavirus, according to an April report from the Center for Disease Control.
The vast majority of healthcare workers reported that their symptoms were mild, but several hundred had cases serious enough to warrant a hospital stay, and at least 27 US healthcare workers have died from the disease.
The number reported by the CDC is likely incomplete. Earlier this month, the National Nurses United union reported that at least 48 nurses have died from the coronavirus.
As of April 9, 2020, the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic had resulted in 1,521,252 cases and 92,798 deaths worldwide, ...
Interesting that today's America numbers, both in cases and deaths, is almost exactly the same.
quote
During February 12–April 9, among 315,531 COVID-19 cases reported to CDC using a standardized form, 49,370 (16%) included data on whether the patient was a health care worker in the United States; including 9,282 (19%) who were identified as HCP (health care provider). ... Among HCP patients with data on health care, household, and community exposures, 780 (55%) reported contact with a COVID-19 patient only in health care settings.
Ok, I suck at math but 780 is not 55% of 9,282.
I also question how a HCP could know where, or when, they were infected.
Perhaps my ignorance is showing. Hard for me to believe this is the official CDC website but I know it is.
Originally posted by blackrams: Boonie, You commented in this thread and then disappeared...…….. What's the deal?
The "deal" is i'm not all-that interested lately in sharing my opinion, ideas, thoughts, etc. in any "meaningful" way. At least not like I used to, when we all at least pretended to respect each other. I don't come here for negativity. I can get all the negativity I want in the mainstream. I come here to learn, be entertained, and to return that great pleasure if I can.
But it seems some here are wholly incapable (or unwilling) to engage in the CIVIL exchange of differing opinions & ideas between supposed adults without the unnecessary & self-serving cruelty of personal insults, accusations, insinuations, associations, and all sorts of lower-level 4th grade bullsh!t. Makes it almost impossible to learn, teach, or even entertain. What's the point.
quote
Originally posted by blackrams: Edited: I'd like to learn more about your position on the value of humans.
And although the above is maybe one of my most reoccurring personal contemplations, and something I care deeply about, thanks to others here who have in the past turned questions like these into nothing more than opportunities to drag one through the mud personally, I usually sneer past such questions simply out of a matter of trust.
But since it's you, i'll bite.
"The Value Of Humans"
Philosophically, we are all just dust in the wind, and nothing means nothing. We manufacture meaning in our lives simply to give our lives meaning. It's simple, it's extremely easy on the brain, and pretty-much 100% guilt-free. And you can do it all without make-believe.
Personally, I think we are supposed to be constantly evolving. While fighting the growing pains of the difficulty that comes with having to leave our "tribalistic" past. A past that benefitted greatly from the unity of the thoughts & actions of that very tribalism.
But without growth, tribalism becomes toxic: A loyalty to one's own tribe or social group to the point that dogma and dysfunction become the standard.
I believe we can grow out of it, and still retain the beliefs & standards we hold dear. It really shouldn't be that hard at all. As Americans we already claim it's tenets as one of our most prized possessions: No mind to race, color, national origin, religion, sex, age, disability, marital status, political affiliation, etc. NOT Black-White, Christian-Muslim, Republican-Democrat, Straight-Gay, Old-Young, American-not American, or any other label used to remind The Righteous of their supposed righteousness. Like it or not, with all our faults & greatness, there's just us.
So, the value of human beings? Zero to infinity, depending on the health of the brain contemplating it, and the integrity of the person it resides in.
I guess it all depends on choice, and the self-imposed limits one puts on their ability to evolve mentally. The level of intellectual growth I'm currently at does not afford me the simplistic failsafe of grouping humans into just 2 groups: Us & Them. Or the self-serving blindness to ignore that fact.
Of mice & men...
Boondawg
quote
No man is an island entire of itself; Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
Any man's death diminishes me, Because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. ~ John Donne
There ya' go, pal!
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-18-2020).]
I have been looking into more of the Atlas Society thinking. I am not fully on board for the idea of living only for myself but, I will never be a slave to the requirement to serve for the needs of others, the balance between should be my choice. One version, we should confiscate all the 401Ks, property titles public and private, and other earnings to save the 15 thousand persons of New York, mostly 60 and above and mostly with health issues that had the possibility to kill them in a few years, because of the public good. My version, we all pay taxes on every earned dollar to pay for public infrastructure, judges and police, and we have public hospitals for those that chose not to pay for private hospitals for whatever circumstance. My labor = my life = my money traded for my life. Taking part of my life is making me a slave, it should be by my consent.
[This message has been edited by FriendGregory (edited 05-18-2020).]
I have been looking into more of the Atlas Society thinking. I am not fully on board for the idea of living only for myself but, I will never be a slave to the requirement to serve for the needs of others, the balance between should be my choice. One version, we should confiscate all the 401Ks, property titles public and private, and other earnings to save the 15 thousand persons of New York, mostly 60 and above and mostly with health issues that had the possibility to kill them in a few years, because of the public good. My version, we all pay taxes on every earned dollar to pay for public infrastructure, judges and police, and we have public hospitals for those that chose not to pay for private hospitals for whatever circumstance. My labor = my life = my money traded for my life. Taking part of my life is making me a slave, it should be by my consent.
As one slowly backs away from the bong...
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-19-2020).]
Something companies with employees need to focus on, all these office buildings are for the most part, needless. If you can use a computer online at an office you can do it at home. That would remove the risk from a very high percentage of office / desk / cubicle workers, and keep them off the streets and sidewalks and out of gas stations where the other folks need to be if they don't have a type of job that can telecommute. With the whole save the environment push over the last decade, it still baffles me that we clog city freeways every morning for things we could be doing from home.
Working from home isn't for everyone. If you need quiet to concentrate, good effen luck.
Even with no kids, just dogs and neighbors in the building I very quickly gave up and started working at night when things are quiet... Er. Even then it's not ideal, just better.
Long term, you really want to set up a shed or garage or something like that as an office to completely separate from the house. Once I get the 3d printer and up and running on that, I'm bringing in a smallish rv camper trailer to use as an office for exactly the separation reason. Right now I'm running 5 regular assistant clients plus the woodwork and it's overwhelming at times dealing with the house distractions.
Buuuttt.. Not renting space keeps that much more in my pocket.
When I try to have thoughts about the value of human life, it starts like this...
We are all human. Together, all 7+ (almost 8) billion humans all around the globe, we are a species. A species like no other that we know of.
I like to think about how far into the future our species could survive--even if the species evolves into something--some other species--that we would not call "human" or "homo sapiens" in the context of today.
But long before that kind of evolution could take place, there will be (in truth, there e already are) existential threats for the species to overcome. Leaving aside the possibility of a kind of species-wide or global resignation to quietly accept our extinction without a "fight." Which seems alien to my own way of thinking, when I'm thinking "species."
We can't be killed off by the reemergence of volcanic activity on a prehistoric scale--think "Siberian Traps"--if we've already succumbed to Runaway Global Warming and Greenhouse-Gas'd the Earth into a carbon (carbonized) copy of the planet Venus. Or succumbed to the impact of a massive asteroid or comet.
When I try to have thoughts about the value of human life, it starts like this...
We are all human. Together, all 7+ (almost 8) billion humans all around the globe, we are a species. A species like no other that we know of.
I like to think about how far into the future our species could survive--even if the species evolves into something--some other species--that we would not call "human" or "homo sapiens" in the context of today.
But long before that kind of evolution could take place, there will be (in truth, there e already are) existential threats for the species to overcome. Leaving aside the possibility of a kind of species-wide or global resignation to quietly accept our extinction without a "fight." Which seems alien to my own way of thinking, when I'm thinking "species."
We can't be killed off by the reemergence of volcanic activity on a prehistoric scale--think "Siberian Traps"--if we've already succumbed to Runaway Global Warming and Greenhouse-Gas'd the Earth into a carbon (carbonized) copy of the planet Venus. Or succumbed to the impact of a massive asteroid or comet.
