My opposition to the potential Lockdown is twofold but principally it is based on the fact that over two hundred and thirty years of rights and liberties should not be shredded on the basis of any threat, real or imagined. Americans either have rights or we don’t. There is no asterisk in the Constitution that states the Bill of Rights is null and void in the event of a terrorist attack or a virus outbreak. If we do not maintain our rights in a time of crisis, then, simply put, we do not truly have rights at all.
If we do not maintain these rights, our country, such as it is, ceases to exist.
Secondly, we are quickly driving this country to a second Great Depression where unemployment is at levels never before seen and where only the 1% and the major banks have anything resembling wealth. This Depression will be so devastating that it will make the first look weak in comparison, not just because of employment but because of the real human toll after decades of globalism, Free Trade, and urbanization have gutted this country of its workforce, manufacturing, healthcare, education, production capabilities, and general living standards.
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
My opposition to the potential Lockdown is twofold but principally it is based on the fact that over two hundred and thirty years of rights and liberties should not be shredded on the basis of any threat, real or imagined. Americans either have rights or we don’t. There is no asterisk in the Constitution that states the Bill of Rights is null and void in the event of a terrorist attack or a virus outbreak. If we do not maintain our rights in a time of crisis, then, simply put, we do not truly have rights at all.
If we do not maintain these rights, our country, such as it is, ceases to exist.
Secondly, we are quickly driving this country to a second Great Depression where unemployment is at levels never before seen and where only the 1% and the major banks have anything resembling wealth. This Depression will be so devastating that it will make the first look weak in comparison,
Rights, liberties and freedoms were gone long before this lockdown.
They have been eroded for over 100 years, starting with prohibition, under color of law.
War on alcohol, war on drugs, war on terrorism, war on corona, war on (insert whatever here). Every time a war on something starts, rights, liberties and freedoms are lost.
Add in political correctness, which is actually a war on free speech. It's designed to take away your ability to complain and defend your other rights verbally. If you can't say truck then you can't say truck you to your oppressors.
So many are looking for somewhere to place blame. The left blames Trump, Trump blames the Chinese, the Chinese blame the U.S. military, I blame Walmart for not stocking enough toilet paper.
The author of this article blames “the government”:
quote
Now, here we are close to twenty years later. Americans once again have a shadowy nemesis for which our government has once again failed to provide adequate information. Once again, the governmental response is not a robust rethinking of how we got to be where we are, (in this case how medical care is provided, who has access to it, or the overarching philosophy behind it), but a massive police state, quasi martial law, and the evisceration of what is left of the liberties and rights they didn’t give away twenty years ago or give away gradually in the time between.
In his effort to find a scapegoat, and therefore absolve himself of responsibility, he has relinquished his rights to “the government”, voluntarily. He requires that the government act, then complains that the government has acted.
Originally posted by Boondawg: Even crazier question. Is he still allowed to think about stuff that doesn't affect him personally?
Heck yeah, any non-U. S. citizen can think whatever they wish. (Edited: To be clear, U. S. citizens can also think what they wish, didn't mean to leave them out.) That doesn’t mean we U. S. Citizens need to care what they think. I personally don’t really care how they run his country and I doubt he or any of it’s citizens would care to hear my gut reactions (if, I had any) to their government. But, if I did spout off about his country or his government, I would fully expect to receive a reaction.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 03-27-2020).]
There must have been this weird narrative that most all bought when it comes to this novel common cold virus, known as COIVD-19.
The more I really learn about the virology and biology of this virus, the more I'm not even worried about it. I can go on about the details, but receiving information from calm experts, from before and during this pandemic, is been where I have put some of my attention to.
I then read about how physical distancing is actually helping to drop the number of influenza cases currently. There is an influenza outbreak still ravaging through the world too, in conjunction with this coronavirus.
The CDC just released their influenza numbers (COMPLETELY DEVOID OF ANY MEDIA ATTENTION). 39 million Americans are or have been infected with influenza this cycle (2019/2020), resulting in 400,000 hospitalizations and 24,000 deaths. <------- PERSPECTIVE. THIS IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW.
I don't hear any stories about how 400,000 hospitalizations are stretching the medical supplies and we are running out of hospital beds.
Here is what I think happened. The media showed this noval virus in China and how the Chinese were using draconian methods to contain it in the city of Wuwan. Shoving infected people in quarantine apartment buildings and welding the doors shut. Shutting down everything and etc. It was built up as some scary zombie virus that if the Chinese are willing to go that far then this must be a very scary virus. Then people started to post these 100-year virus pandemic stories, like the Spanish Flu, and the 1820, 1720, 1620 pandemics and etc. Then they said is 2020 next?
But inevitably, it spreads, because the zoological transfer of these viruses, which comes from bats, which are close colony animals, have viruses that are easily transmissible. So that is why this coronavirus is spreading rapidly. Practically all virus origins come from another species.
But the virus is a very weak virus, because here is a big idea.... Viruses aren't designed to kill their host. This virus is very limited, easily killed by just simple soap, sunlight, temperature and our immune system can easily take care of it (for those that are deemed marginally healthy).
But the media spinning this as this zombie virus from China starts hitting everywhere in the world, and all of a sudden a narrative is built. The media and politicians turn to the medical community, who in turn always give their worse case scenarios (can't blame them), and the news gets out about grandma dying everywhere, and the politicians turn back to the medical professionals again, who in turn give their worse case scenarios (and this cycle continues over and over again). Now they make draconian measures to what they say is to stop the spread of this virus, when it is already too late, but they want to make sure they do "something" about it, because they know that all the blame goes to them. Because no matter what they do, it will NEVER be enough for people and the media. They will always point to a dead grandma and say "It's your fault. You didn't do enough. This is poor leadership."
So people panic, people panic buy, business gets closed because of panic by politicians, economy crashes because of the panic, politicians throw helicopter money to keep the economy from tanking further, (of course people will say, "you didn't do enough.") and the media will keep on portraying the death rates everyday and telling everyone Trump sucks, while Biden be hiding in his basement.
Meanwhile, an Oxford study is showing that possibly millions upon millions if not already 50% of the developed world, including the USA/Canada has already probably contracted this COVID-19, as more than half the people would have no or very little symptoms and that a communal immunity is already starting to happen.
In other words, we are for the most part, most likely fine, but the hysteria alone has made a mini crash of the economy that will have lasting effects. Even NY Governor Andrew Cuomo is even second guessing that closing down businesses may have been a bad idea and a poor decision. At least someone is willing to take accountability for that.
I have no doubt, as the year progresses, that most everyone will look back at this hysteria and face palm themselves or at least blame (politically) other people for their stupidity or pouring lighter fluid on a fire. But these politicians and media heads have no skin in the game. They don't loose from being wrong. They keep going and wielding the power they have over you.
I for one am not afraid at all. I proved that by actually going to the homeless shelter yesterday evening and serving over 600 meals, with no physical distancing. The homeless still need our attention.
Even if I have the essential multi-pass to work, am going to go on as usual. Not reckless, mind you. I wash hands, sanitize them, wear gloves when pumping gas, comply with the physical distancing lines at the stores, public and work. Because I know most people took in this hysteria and are afraid of strangers more than ever, so I don't want to frighten them.
In fact, I had a dry cough spell for a few days back in early Feb, that coincides with the description of many healthy people who have been tested positive for COVID-19, since I travel often, I figured I most likely already had the virus back in early Feb, and now I'm good.
I'm not afraid at all. I'm perplexed of how far this pandemic narrative went and is still going.
Meanwhile, China and the rest of Asia is going back to business as usual, because they understand that this isn't really a huge deal. Yeah, there is some attention needed, the medical community will have their hands full for awhile, but we can handle this. Nothing will be overrun, other than GD toilet paper.
Time stamped! Because there will be plenty of people who are "scared" now, that will beat their chest later saying that they knew all along, when in fact they were scared as most everyone else.
Thats how I feel. Take care of yourself and your immune system and you'll be fine. Those who are chronic smokers, alcoholics, drug addicts, and people with health issues should be at least slightly concerned.
The CDC just released their influenza numbers (COMPLETELY DEVOID OF ANY MEDIA ATTENTION). 39 million Americans are or have been infected with influenza this cycle (2019/2020), resulting in 400,000 hospitalizations and 24,000 deaths. <------- PERSPECTIVE. THIS IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW.
Red herring.
Stop comparing covid to flu and at least begin adding it TO flu.
quote
In fact, I had a dry cough spell for a few days back in early Feb, that coincides with the description of many healthy people who have been tested positive for COVID-19, since I travel often, I figured I most likely already had the virus back in early Feb, and now I'm good.
I'm not afraid at all. I'm perplexed of how far this pandemic narrative went and is still going.
So..how many others did you transmit it to? You don't know, and you don't care. No, most healthy people AREN'T afraid of getting it.I'm not either. What they should be primarily concerned with tho, (and I am) is getting it and giving it to someone else..their parents, grandparents, other fellow employees, older people or others that DO have health issues. They aren't and that's the fallacy of the whole "not as bad as the flu" thing. What they really mean, is "It's not as bad as the flu FOR ME." Their only concern is themselves.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 03-28-2020).]
So..how many others did you transmit it to? You don't know, and you don't care. No, most healthy people AREN'T afraid of getting it.I'm not either. What they should be primarily concerned with tho, (and I am) is getting it and giving it to someone else..their parents, grandparents, other fellow employees, older people or others that DO have health issues. They aren't and that's the fallacy of the whole "not as bad as the flu" thing. What they really mean, is "It's not as bad as the flu FOR ME." Their only concern is themselves.
Actually it is quite the opposite. I do see that it is mostly the older generation that are most concerned about this, and with the vast majority of the politicians in office, from local, state to federal level, are old boomer generations.
They say it is selfish for us to go around to keep the economy going, to find normally in a semi-police state, but in fact it is those that are scared of this are in positions where they are retired or have tenured positions and not forced out of work,. So you force everyone else out of work, so that YOU don't get sick.
It is like the older generation could care less about wrecking the economy of their children and grandchildren and saddling us with even more massive debt, because YOU don't want to get sick.
The local police department here is tired of receiving calls from people who are asking the police to arrest people for walking outside, walking their dog, jogging or biking together. Calling the cops because their is no toilet paper. Calling the cops because a couple of utility workers are working on a power line. Calling the cops because of a lawn crew working to cut lawns in the neighborhood and calling the cops on the postal service for delivering mail.
After 2008, it took 10-years for most economically sound cities in the USA to get back to the economy of baseline to 2008 levels. Most places are still economically devastated in the rural areas and in Europe. So you are asking that your children and grandchildren go into depression for a minimum of 10-years, so you don't get sick for the next month?
Again, you have to compare this to influenza, as the NIH Director mention, that Corona virus and Influenza is happening at the same time. It's not that they are exactly the same, but they are happening together. And we do know numbers about that, and it is a fact that 39 million infected, 400,000 people have been hospitalized and 24,000 deaths just here in the past few months.
Corona is 105,000 with 1,711 deaths.
But if everyone else wants the totalitarian state, act like neighborhood stazis, and be completely selfish with no regards to everyone else true well being, then keep on being people the people who call the cops on those that take walks outside.
[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 03-28-2020).]
Again, you have to compare this to influenza, as the NIH Director mention, that Corona virus and Influenza is happening at the same time. It's not that they are exactly the same, but they are happening together. And we do know numbers about that, and it is a fact that 39 million infected, 400,000 people have been hospitalized and 24,000 deaths just here in the past few months.
Corona is 105,000 with 1,711 deaths.
Actually, it's 123,776 with 2,229 deaths as of 10 minutes ago.
It's not the flu. It has the potential to be much worse than the flu and currently, it is. CDC has stated over and over again, that on average, 36,000 people die each year from the flu in the USA. Some years more..some years less, but on average, it's 36,000. (CDC states that 2018-2019 flu season= 34,200 deaths.) (CDC readily admits that it really has no idea, as flu is not a reportable illness nor is it a reportable death, except on a death certificate IF the attending physician chooses to include it. CDC just estimates it)
Flu season runs from Oct 1 and is generally considered for statistical purposes to end on May 1. That's 7 months where I attended school. 7 months X average of 30 days=210 days. 36,000 deaths ÷ 210 days=171 flu deaths per day per flu season.
The 1st verified Covid-19 case appeared in the US on or around Jan 20, 2020. (69 days ago) As off this date and 2:20am CDT, 2,229 people have died from Covid-19. That is 32.3 deaths per day, or approx 1100 deaths per month.
But:
March 29 (GMT) 198 new cases and 8 new deaths in the United States (incomplete as only 3 hours have elapsed this date)
March 28 (GMT) 19452 new cases and 525 new deaths in the United States
March 27 (GMT) alert 18691 new cases and 401 new deaths in the United States
March 26 (GMT) 17224 new cases and 268 new deaths in the United States
March 25 (GMT) 13355 new cases and 247 new deaths in the United States
March 24 (GMT) 11075 new cases and 225 new deaths in the United States
March 23 (GMT) 10189 new cases and 141 new deaths in the United States
March 22 (GMT) 9400 new cases and 117 new deaths in the United States
March 21 (GMT) 4824 new cases and 46 new deaths in the United States
March 20 (GMT) alert 5594 new cases and 49 new deaths in the United States
All this is moot of course, because you have confirmed what I already said. You don't know how many you infected and you don't care, nor do you care how many die from it. Not surprising really. When it comes to money, there's always a demographic that someone is willing to sacrifice so they can make or keep their money...a price or value they are willing to place on "someone else".
The Germans did it with the Jews, the Turks with the Armenians, the white people with the American Indians, The Russians with any number of demographics, the Spanish with the Incas and Aztecs.. It's always "someone else" that is disposable just so we can keep our little insignificant lifestyles going. Lots of people are even prone to say "There's too many people"! Of course, they are talking about too many "Other people" and don't include themselves in it and would never consider that they should put their life where their mouth is and be the first on their block to volunteer for extermination chambers.....never happen, but they'd be fine with it happening to all those 'someone else' people. They probably won't want it to include any of their loved ones either..but mnaybe the neighbor down the street would be fine with it.
Sometimes, I get confused and wonder if people are upset that the world is trying to prevent loss of life from coronovirus or if they are upset that the world isn't doing the same with the flu because that's what so many people keep saying.."We don't do this with the flu!!!". I really suspect they just don't give a **** about either one, as long as it's not them that gets infected.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 03-29-2020).]
Originally posted by IMSA GT: Crazy question for the OP. You live in Nova Scotia. Do our laws and history affect you?
Yes
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Crazy question for the OP. You live in Nova Scotia. Do our laws and history affect you?
To the extent that our United States Constitution provides us the 1st and 2nd Amendments, his lack of those protections, and more, does affect him.
Now we will be regaled with tall tales of how he "essentially" has those same protections, (which he really doesn't but needs to convince himself that he does in order to feel better)
OR
We will be told fairy tales of how "the unjust and evil United States" supposedly wreaks such havoc on his and other foreign people's lives.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 03-29-2020).]
Gross domestic product is expected to decline by more than 7 percent during the second quarter. If that happened, the decline in the annualized growth rate reported by the Bureau of Economic Analysis would be about four times larger and would exceed 28 percent. Those declines could be much larger, however.
The only real proof is hindsight, but i think that the CBO is about as authoritative as they get.
The real danger is the economic damage that the so called "solution" to the virus is causing. Only herd immunity will stop the virus, altho the weather (sunlight) might slow it down till the fall.
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Actually, it's 123,776 with 2,229 deaths as of 10 minutes ago.
It's not the flu. It has the potential to be much worse than the flu and currently, it is.
...
It's at 6,000+ deaths so far today. Most conservative estimates say it'll hit about 200k deaths in the US before it's over.
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
The only real proof is hindsight, but i think that the CBO is about as authoritative as they get.
The real danger is the economic damage that the so called "solution" to the virus is causing. Only herd immunity will stop the virus, altho the weather (sunlight) might slow it down till the fall.
jon
Responding really to the first post. I'm frustrated with the "laws" that are being enacted that are affecting our freedoms. But... to be clear, you're posting from Canada, so I think you're talking about Canadian rights, not US rights. The Federal Government has not issued such a law or ruling. It's simply been a recommendation. President Trump knows not to enact Martial law because he'd lose support from his base REALLY fast.
The laws and restrictions that are being enacted and pushed are all at the state and local level, to be clear. I expect quite a few lawsuits in Federal court in the next couple of years after all this is over.
But, I do think we need to take this virus seriously, that's all I'm going to say about it.
Responding really to the first post. I'm frustrated with the "laws" that are being enacted that are affecting our freedoms. But... to be clear, you're posting from Canada, so I think you're talking about Canadian rights, not US rights.
Todd, longjonsilver may live in Canada, but he's quoting an article about American rights and freedoms... so I suspect none of us really know what exactly the point of his post was.
I can tell you first hand that there are no restrictions on my ability to move about here in Vancouver. With my yoga classes and recreational hockey being canceled several weeks ago due to COVID-19 (and the tandem cycling I do during the hockey off-season also scuttled), I've been going for 1-1/2 hour long brisks walks almost every day to stay fit. I wish I had a dog again, as the cat won't go past the end of the property. The few people I meet on the sidewalk keep to themselves, as do I. Everyone's trying to maintain a distance of six feet or so from each other.
Last night I walked down to the docks. I've observed more of my neighborhood up close and in person during the last three weeks than I've seen in the previous three decades.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-04-2020).]
I have had conversations with friends from across the country, that have mentioned that their neighborhoods are becoming more 'neighborly' since the stay at home orders. People get out to walk, they see and greet each other from a distance and do some small talk as well. One neighbor will shop for several. All while following the social distancing guidelines.
People get out to walk, they see and greet each other from a distance and do some small talk as well.
While out for walks, I've happened upon my yoga instructor several times (always in a different location), even though she lives a couple km from me. (No, I'm not stalking her. ) She's a real sweetheart, and in "normal" times we'd probably give each other a hug. However, our distance is maintained while we chat. There's a whole new social etiquette now. It's very strange.
Todd, longjonsilver may live in Canada, but he's quoting an article about American rights and freedoms... so I suspect none of us really know what exactly the point of his post was.
I can tell you first hand that there are no restrictions on my ability to move about here in Vancouver. With my yoga classes and recreational hockey being canceled several weeks ago due to COVID-19 (and the tandem cycling I do during the hockey off-season also scuttled), I've been going for 1-1/2 hour long brisks walks almost every day to stay fit. I wish I had a dog again, as the cat won't go past the end of the property. The few people I meet on the sidewalk keep to themselves, as do I. Everyone's trying to maintain a distance of six feet or so from each other.
Last night I walked down to the docks. I've observed more of my neighborhood up close and in person during the last three weeks than I've seen in the previous three decades.
Todd, longjonsilver may live in Canada, but he's quoting an article about American rights and freedoms... so I suspect none of us really know what exactly the point of his post was.
Last night I walked down to the docks. I've observed more of my neighborhood up close and in person during the last three weeks than I've seen in the previous three decades.
Very cool pictures... I've always loved living by the ocean. Although, Newfoundland is really cold most of the time, haha... but like Maine, it's very beautiful.
As for Long John Silver... I love their fish sticks, and also the hush puppies. I found one down here in San Antonio across the street from the Habitat Humanity Home ReStore, which by the way, I got an awesome... I mean absolutely awesome deal on cabinet doors. Total tangent here... Home Depot charges like 20 grand to do a cabinet refacing for most medium-sized homes. People pay big money to have this done. When something happens, like they cancel before they get installed, or they get upset and complain about the color (or whatever), the cabinets get removed and... well, they just donate them to Habitat for Humanity. They then take them and put them in their ReStore shop. I **** you not... I got all of these cabinet doors for a total of $28 bucks with tax.
Each one of these would have been like $30 bucks, separately. They're really nice looking, and it's much cheaper for me to build the cabinets, than it is to make the cabinet doors.
Anyway, as far as the post by the OP... different people handle stress in different ways. The biggest thing is a sense of lack of control... which can lead to things like panic buying. That's like my neighbor. She's had two 72-count toilet paper industrial packs delivered to her house, and she still continues to order more at every home delivery she has. Why? I don't know... she has enough toilet paper to last her the next several years, but she continues to order more I suspect because it's her trying to gain control of the situation, a feeling of accomplishment that she's overcoming the problem.
Similarly, is when people end up going down rabbit holes like this. I feel much the same way he does... I don't want my rights infringed, but I see no indication of that happening at the Federal level.
At the state level, perhaps... but not to the extent he's saying it is. What I do find very frustrating though, is the limitations on people in the stores that San Antonio has imposed. The result defeats the purpose. I went to Home Depot yesterday to get some sprinkler risers. There was a super long line at the entrance because they were only allowing 20 people in the store at one time. The purpose of this I suppose is social distancing. Oddly enough, the people in line outside were standing a few inches from eachother. Where as without this ruling, the people would have all been milling around inside with probably equal distance, they're now creating close-packed lines. It's idiocy...
At the same time, I know how bad this virus is... and I support what many of the cities are doing. But with every big bureaucracy, many of the solutions tend to be one size fits all, which is causing more harm than good.
"At the state level, perhaps... but not to the extent he's saying it is. What I do find very frustrating though, is the limitations on people in the stores that San Antonio has imposed. The result defeats the purpose. I went to Home Depot yesterday to get some sprinkler risers. There was a super long line at the entrance because they were only allowing 20 people in the store at one time. The purpose of this I suppose is social distancing. Oddly enough, the people in line outside were standing a few inches from eachother. Where as without this ruling, the people would have all been milling around inside with probably equal distance, they're now creating close-packed lines. It's idiocy... " I saw this at Walmart yesterday. I took the advice of the CDC and wore a mask for the first time this started (rural area). At Walmart I would say 2/3 rds of the people had no mask and were right on top of each other trying to get the last morsel of food that they will ever need, flour is almost impossible to get here. I saw people standing right next to each other at the meat section talking to each other as if social distancing didn't exist. Do I agree with the way things are being dealt with, no, but I will not put someone else at risk because of it.
dan
[This message has been edited by bonaduce (edited 04-05-2020).]
I went to Home Depot yesterday to get some sprinkler risers. There was a super long line at the entrance because they were only allowing 20 people in the store at one time. The purpose of this I suppose is social distancing. Oddly enough, the people in line outside were standing a few inches from each other.
Those people in line standing right next to each other are brain-dead. Why do they think the number of people allowed in the store is being limited? The large supermarket I go to once a week has also instituted this policy. Everyone, and mean everyone keeps their distance from each other. It's the new "normal". People here are taking social distancing seriously.
Aimlessly following suggestions. Sheeple. Their brains can't function on their own...brain-dead.
Let's see, who might it be best to listen to... medical experts from around the world, or some guy with the handle Lambo nut on an automotive forum? Geez, it's a tough call.
Let's see, who might it be best to listen to... medical experts from around the world, or some guy with the handle Lambo nut on an automotive forum? Geez, it's a tough call.
I'm not telling anybody to do anything. Just living my life my way and not in the fear being induced by the media.
The few people I meet on the sidewalk keep to themselves, as do I. Everyone's trying to maintain a distance of six feet or so from each other.
) She's a real sweetheart, and in "normal" times we'd probably give each other a hug. However, our distance is maintained while we chat. There's a whole new social etiquette now. It's very strange. 
The large supermarket I go to once a week has also instituted this policy. Everyone, and mean everyone keeps their distance from each other. It's the new "normal". People here are taking social distancing seriously.
