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4k TVs, and beyond....or not by 2.5
Started on: 01-11-2019 11:31 AM
Replies: 21 (348 views)
Last post by: Mickey_Moose on 01-31-2019 02:40 PM
2.5
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Report this Post01-11-2019 11:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



I think I agree with the guy, except I didn't really understand what I was supposed to see when I put my hand over my eye.

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Boondawg
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Report this Post01-11-2019 12:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That all may be true, but 4K sure looks crisper & cleaner to me!
It also seems to have greater detail, to my eyes anyway.

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2.5
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Report this Post01-11-2019 05:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:

That all may be true, but 4K sure looks crisper & cleaner to me!
It also seems to have greater detail, to my eyes anyway.


I actually think it does too.

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Jonesy
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Report this Post01-11-2019 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JonesyClick Here to Email JonesySend a Private Message to JonesyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Yeah its like game designers trying to make excuses for why current generation of game consoles can't do HD at 60fps, cause they just aren't powerful enough.

"well your eye doesn't see more than 30fps, so it doesn't matter"..

Trust me... It matters!

Play any fast moving game at 60fps or higher.. Then play that same game with a cap at 30fps.. Difference is massive!

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Report this Post01-11-2019 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Video is missing or wrong for several important items. Highlights...

BR vs HD-DVD "Format War" had little to nothing to do w/ Game Consoles. BR won because it had better DRM via BD-J (Bray Disk-Java) that can update/upgrade the disk encryption After the player/software are sold to consumers. If fact, Many early players won't play many newer disks because can't handle later BD-J versions. (Slow CPU, Not enough Memory, etc.) Why? DeCSS and others for viewing DVD w/ Unauthorized Players (Especially Linux players) and copying proved to many MPAA members that "simple" anti-privacy plans doesn't work. Plus You don't need net access to send updates/upgrades because Many BR Disks has/had changes to BD-J that tried to install before the disk played.

DVD, BR, all streams services, all cable and satellite co's, and even "live TV" Compress the F'ed out of nearly everything using Mpeg and other "Lossy" compression methods. (This is why Over The Air Broadcast Stations carry 2 to Several Sub channels like 10.2 10.3 etc.)
So...
  • BR is "Better" then DVDs because BR has more space so can use Less Compression at same FPS and same screen size.
  • Even at higher Frames Per Second and/or higher Screen Size the Compression can, often will, reduce or removed data like black spot test in the video above and fast things that only show in 1 to several frames. Most people watch that video are on Phones Tablets and PC and often is not at full screen size for bigger tablets and PC use. I see as 480p to 720pHD in a standard view depending which screen the browser is on at full size window. You can see only a faint gray spot at best by the time YT compression is done down streaming to most veiwer.
  • 3D video at X FPS has compression and half the rate for each eye to view.
    Even the old red/blue glasses have this problem when digital media is involved. Example: Spy Kids 3D and others on DVD. You had issues w/ video compression and 15FPS max to each eye making more problems to home view. For Many people that simply doesn't works or make them sicker then watching at the theaters. I only got them working by watch them on a laptop or PC w/ screens < 2 to 3 feet away.

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    [This message has been edited by theogre (edited 01-11-2019).]

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  • Raydar
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    Report this Post01-11-2019 08:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    We're still plenty happy with our ancient 42" Vizio 720P TV. Purchased it at least ten years ago, when 1080P was "the sh!t". (I never buy "bleeding edge". Have saved a fortune, that way.)
    We'll keep on using it until it dies, or until we need something "smarter". If we decide to replace it before it dies, it'll get moved to my shop, and replaced with something that has WiFi built in.
    OTA broadcast resolution is as good as I need. (We ditched cable almost a year ago. Seldom miss it.)

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    sdgdf
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    Report this Post01-15-2019 05:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sdgdfClick Here to Email sdgdfSend a Private Message to sdgdfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Appreciate the video, it ties all the video format stuff into a nice little bundle to understand

    My father has a 4K TV and I don't understand the appeal. I can't tell much difference between 4K and 1080p. And I've played lossless non-streaming 4K files on it.

    I may be wrong but it may have something to do with 4K being the first "digital" resolution. Like, the video card on my desktop can display 4K but its referred to as digital, vs. analog resolution that has been standard for 1080p, 720p, on down for decades. It just seems kinda fake to me. Like how some modern TVs will "upconvert" 24 or 30 fps source material to 60/120/240 hz/fps. That creates what was referred to as soap opera effect in that video, and makes it look fake to me.

    Like Raydar^ I'm a dinosaur when it comes to TVs lol. I'm still using CRTs. Sony WEGAs to be exact, I prefer the contrast/color accuracy which I find is only beat by OLED. I'm willing to put up with geometry issues/etc to have black levels that actually look black. I have 2, a 34xbr960 that's widescreen and a 32HS420 that's 4:3. They both do 1080i and look stunning, and shows that are 4:3 SD definitely look better on the 32 than on newer TVs. It comes with tech that enhances SD that manufacturers don't bother with anymore.

    It also helps that I got both TVs for under $100. $20 for the xbr and $50 for the other one .

    [This message has been edited by sdgdf (edited 01-15-2019).]

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    theogre
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    Report this Post01-16-2019 12:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by sdgdf:

    Appreciate the video, it ties all the video format stuff into a nice little bundle to understand

    My father has a 4K TV and I don't understand the appeal. I can't tell much difference between 4K and 1080p. And I've played lossless non-streaming 4K files on it.

    I may be wrong but it may have something to do with 4K being the first "digital" resolution. Like, the video card on my desktop can display 4K but its referred to as digital, vs. analog resolution that has been standard for 1080p, 720p, on down for decades. It just seems kinda fake to me. Like how some modern TVs will "upconvert" 24 or 30 fps source material to 60/120/240 hz/fps. That creates what was referred to as soap opera effect in that video, and makes it look fake to me.
    Is because Most source video are very compressed. Then add any "up-converting" by players or "TV" itself just tries to guess to restore/add missing data. Example: You had many players etc as "Line multipliers" to try to use NTSC/PAL on big screens and projectors 20+ years ago and often doesn't work well even now. Many DVD/BR had "Progressive" etc output 10+ years ago just for bigger screens and often still have issues because most DVD and some BR media have lost too much data to start with.

    Even then try setting screen video. Many default settings on the "TV" can make the picture too bright, too saturated, and video will look bad or at least odd like the "soap opera effect."

     
    quote
    Like Raydar^ I'm a dinosaur when it comes to TVs lol. I'm still using CRTs. Sony WEGAs to be exact, I prefer the contrast/color accuracy which I find is only beat by OLED. I'm willing to put up with geometry issues/etc to have black levels that actually look black. I have 2, a 34xbr960 that's widescreen and a 32HS420 that's 4:3. They both do 1080i and look stunning, and shows that are 4:3 SD definitely look better on the 32 than on newer TVs. It comes with tech that enhances SD that manufacturers don't bother with anymore.
    Most "Smart" anything w/ net access will report all media and more data to the maker and others. Samsung and others are/have been in court etc in the US and other counties for collecting user data w/o notice for phones and "smart" TV and Media Players.

    Ignoring most CRT and older LCD/Plasma units don't support HDCP require to run many DRM protected media... CRT may look better for many but big problems they are way too heavy and deep as the tube gets bigger. New LCD units even at 19 to 35 inch are way lighter and take a fraction of depth vs CRT at same size. I have many bigger CRT since IBM PS/2 8514 (Weighting 42 lb) and takes a huge amount of desk top space that often have a hard time to fit a KB and mouse. Worse when desktop or whatever is ageist a wall. Many had extra keyboard "shelves" or use small draws or use KB on their laps to use a larger screen so can work w/o having the screen 12-18" inches in front of you. Bigger TV have same problems but can sit farther away. I have 27" TV that made the cabinet to warp over time just for the weight. New 32" LCD w/ LED back-light is so light can move it safely w/ one hand.

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    sdgdf
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    Report this Post01-16-2019 04:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sdgdfClick Here to Email sdgdfSend a Private Message to sdgdfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by theogre:

    Is because Most source video are very compressed. Then add any "up-converting" by players or "TV" itself just tries to guess to restore/add missing data. Example: You had many players etc as "Line multipliers" to try to use NTSC/PAL on big screens and projectors 20+ years ago and often doesn't work well even now. Many DVD/BR had "Progressive" etc output 10+ years ago just for bigger screens and often still have issues because most DVD and some BR media have lost too much data to start with.

    Even then try setting screen video. Many default settings on the "TV" can make the picture too bright, too saturated, and video will look bad or at least odd like the "soap opera effect."

    Most "Smart" anything w/ net access will report all media and more data to the maker and others. Samsung and others are/have been in court etc in the US and other counties for collecting user data w/o notice for phones and "smart" TV and Media Players.

    Ignoring most CRT and older LCD/Plasma units don't support HDCP require to run many DRM protected media... CRT may look better for many but big problems they are way too heavy and deep as the tube gets bigger. New LCD units even at 19 to 35 inch are way lighter and take a fraction of depth vs CRT at same size. I have many bigger CRT since IBM PS/2 8514 (Weighting 42 lb) and takes a huge amount of desk top space that often have a hard time to fit a KB and mouse. Worse when desktop or whatever is ageist a wall. Many had extra keyboard "shelves" or use small draws or use KB on their laps to use a larger screen so can work w/o having the screen 12-18" inches in front of you. Bigger TV have same problems but can sit farther away. I have 27" TV that made the cabinet to warp over time just for the weight. New 32" LCD w/ LED back-light is so light can move it safely w/ one hand.


    I've been able to cope with the depth of the CRTs by putting them in corners. I figured out that if I had the same size LCD in the corner it would have to stick out into the room about the same amount . If they were just against a wall though it'd be annoying.

    I remember using CRTs as computer monitors, and having them take up the entire desk. I don't miss those days so of course I use LCDs for my computer monitors. Text is much easier to read on a LCD without the interlacing so I'd never go back to CRT for computing.

    Both my CRTs are some of the last ones ever produced, so they have HDMI w/ HDCP for DRM. And I agree that smart tvs have issues with privacy, one reason I'm not that eager to upgrade.

    Weight can be an issue, but when my Dad needed his 40" 4k LCD set up it took 2 of us anyways getting it out of the box and mounted on the wall. The xbr960 weighs 210+ lbs and it was crazy getting it into the house with just 1 friend helping, but we managed. The other one I have is 32" and weighs like 180 and I managed to get it up 2 flights of stairs on my own, and lifted it onto its stand by myself. I'd just grab it by the front (all the weight seems to be on the front of these), right hand on bottom right corner, left hand on upper left corner, grip and use my legs for all the lifting. I still can't get it through doorways or onto a truck on my own though.

    I'm holding out for the price on OLEDs to go down. I remember looking at them back in 2011, and have been hoping this entire time they would become more mainstream. But nope

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    theogre
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    Report this Post01-17-2019 12:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Yes many LCD et al are heavy but isn't the electronics doing this.
    Many have heavy frames even weights inside. Many have weights in the base too.

    LCD w/ CCF backlight need to be thicker and have more of framing to keep the tubes in place. Bigger screens uses many of tubes to light up properly.
    ~ 19" and less often uses 2 tubes at the edge and edge light a "light pipe" that back lights the screen but bigger screens often have several at minimum lighting up the back of screens.
    Many have glass "filters" to even out the CCF back lighting and/or glass fronts and both are heavier too.

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    Boondawg
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    Report this Post01-17-2019 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    It makes the old scanning electron gun seem...covered-wagoney!

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    Report this Post01-17-2019 07:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    I have mixed feelings about 4K resolution. I can see the benefit on really big screens, so the pixel size doesn't get too big. But on smaller screens, I think it's pointless. And IMO, it's possible to make an image so sharp it looks artificial.

    Also, anything beyond 60Hz refresh rate doesn't seem to matter to my eyes. This will probably change from one person to the next.

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    2.5
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    Report this Post01-18-2019 10:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by Blacktree:

    I have mixed feelings about 4K resolution. I can see the benefit on really big screens, so the pixel size doesn't get too big. But on smaller screens, I think it's pointless. And IMO, it's possible to make an image so sharp it looks artificial.

    Also, anything beyond 60Hz refresh rate doesn't seem to matter to my eyes. This will probably change from one person to the next.


    Probably changes with age of the viewer too?

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    theogre
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    Report this Post01-18-2019 12:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by 2.5:
    Probably changes with age of the viewer too?
    Not really.
    Above 30FPS the human eye and brain can't tell any difference. 3D video cut frames per eye per second so need more ~ 2x the FPS so each eye gets > ~ 25 FPS.

    Beyond Hype to sell screens... Some benefit to have different refresh rates for many years.
    Example: FPS/Hz for CRT matters when you have fluorescent lamps at work etc and been so for decades.
    Not your eyes see any diff but to stop screen "beating" "waving" under fluorescent lamps. 60hz screen refresh does bad things and make users have eye strain etc. When people call me for screen problem at work w/o being a dead screen, my first thing is to set Windows to 70hz or anything other that 60hz. Side effect is many CRT are brighter at higher Hz because phosphors see more electro beam each second. That Helps many but Bad for screen burn problems for security monitors etc w/o turning down brightness at the monitor or in whatever software.

    Why? In the US, Most Fluorescent lamps flash at 60hz or 120hz depending on ballast used to run them. 120hz is 2nd harmonic to 60hz and still causes problems for 60hz screens. (Some Electric Ballasts use higher frequency to run the tubes.)
    Screen at 60Hz doesn't exactly match the strobe timing from fluorescent lamp so basically does same strobe effect that make car and other wheels to spin backward or slow spin forwards in many videos and moves.

    Even when you have higher FPS/Hz for your local screen(s), the source media will still strobe at whatever shutter speed and you will still get same issues for that.
    Like "Rolling Shutters" that most phones have do very weird things beyond wheel spin issue above. Depending on angle, exact shutter speed, etc, airplane props and many other things can "warp" and twist at impossible angles even look alien.

    [This message has been edited by theogre (edited 01-18-2019).]

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    rogergarrison
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    Report this Post01-20-2019 09:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by Raydar:

    We're still plenty happy with our ancient 42" Vizio 720P TV. Purchased it at least ten years ago, when 1080P was "the sh!t". (I never buy "bleeding edge". Have saved a fortune, that way.)
    We'll keep on using it until it dies, or until we need something "smarter". If we decide to replace it before it dies, it'll get moved to my shop, and replaced with something that has WiFi built in.
    OTA broadcast resolution is as good as I need. (We ditched cable almost a year ago. Seldom miss it.)


    I agree, my biggest tv is 32" because i never watch from more than 8' away. 720 is fine for that, i dont see a noticable difference on that size. It does make a difference if you have a 55" or bigger though. I havent bought one lately, but buying a 720 (dont even know if you still can) saves a ton of money. My newest 32" Samsung smart tv was $130. A DVD player or VCR doesnt do better than 480 anyway, but does upgrade it slightly with progressive scanning. I watch a lot of tapes and DVDs. Both RVs have 4 tvs and the satellite on them only shows 480/720, and have 5 in the house. One friend of mine has almost 40 tvs in his, including an 85" theater, 75" at his pool, and even tvs in the shower walls in the bathrooms. What I see in his theater is you miss the action on one side of the screen completely watching the other side...you cant see the whole screen at once. I find a 32" at 8' is ideal for me...40something is doable.

    Consumer Electronics Show already showed a 5K tv. To me thats even way more overkill. Do I really have to see every whisker in a beard or blade of grass ?

    [This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-20-2019).]

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    fierosound
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    Report this Post01-21-2019 10:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by sdgdf:

    My father has a 4K TV and I don't understand the appeal. I can't tell much difference between 4K and 1080p.


    Depends on screen size.
    I think you can't see the benefits of 4K unless the screen size is over 50".

    I had a Samsung 58" 1080P that looked pretty damn good.
    When I got a 64" 1080P you could see it looked a little "grainy" at times.

    I now have a 75" 4K UHD 240Hz refresh rate that upconverts and is razor sharp compared to even the 58" 1080P
    Blu-ray disks look phenomenal because of the upconversion.
    I've only bought 2 4K movies because the B-R disks look so good.

    So yeah - no point having a 4K computer monitor or small TV.
    The screen size is too small to appreciate the increase in resolution.


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    [This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 01-21-2019).]

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    theogre
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    Report this Post01-22-2019 12:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by fierosound:
    So yeah - no point having a 4K computer monitor or small TV.
    The screen size is too small to appreciate the increase in resolution.
    And phones and tablets and laptops < 15" screen w/ 1024xWhatever and higher screen. You're still watching a "postage stamp" screen no matter what Apple et al claim the screen is so much "better" then old screens. And most still can't use in direct sun either.

    Even Desktop PC w/ 19-24" wide screens are a big pain vs 19" standard screen because can't display 8.5x11 page at same size as old 17-19" monitors of any type. I have 23"w (HP 2311x) and 19" (Dell 1901FP) connected to my PC for this reason. The Dell screen is physically bigger, ~ 1" vertical, then the HP and easier to read most PDF etc because most are formatted for Letter/A4 paper. If I need to see bigger I can twist the Dell to Portrait very easy because stand has a pivot for this. Have 2 19" at work w/ one each way to read Work tickets on Portrait screen.

    Then add Very few uses external screens of any type on tablets etc so maker's saying better "GPU" w/ mini/micro HDMI etc means nothing but Fanboys still buy that hype. ("GPU" includes whatever "CPU" and chip-sets w/ builtin graphic engines as in AMD "APU" and many Intel chip-sets.)
    Most laptops have external video ports for Decades and I can count seeing external ports actually used many 20-30 times over the years out of Thousands of laptop to support. Many had OEM Docking Stations like Dell Latitude models and docks and users still didn't use extra screens KB etc at the office. They only see docks as easy charging and net access in one step.

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    Report this Post01-23-2019 12:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by theogre:

    Most laptops have external video ports for Decades and I can count seeing external ports actually used many 20-30 times over the years out of Thousands of laptop to support..


    My laptop has a 17" screen, but I connect to a widescreen 24" monitor via DVI connection at 2048x1152 resolution.
    I send the same 2048x1152 via hardwired HDMI to the 75" 4K UHD TV for streaming movies etc.
    The TV then upscales that to 4K but final picture quality depends on the quality of the original source.

    [This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 01-31-2019).]

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    rogergarrison
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    Report this Post01-29-2019 12:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Today Show revealed theyre working on 8K tv already, and there wont be any broadcasts to support it for years. They barely have 4K programming now to watch.

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    2.5
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    Report this Post01-31-2019 10:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by rogergarrison:

    Today Show revealed theyre working on 8K tv already, and there wont be any broadcasts to support it for years. They barely have 4K programming now to watch.


    $ucker$

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    theogre
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    Report this Post01-31-2019 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by 2.5:
    $ucker$
    Yup.
    Because both need a lot more Bandwidth even w/ Compression and OTA and Cable Co's and FiOS won't be in a hurry to add/change channels for a few customers that "demand" 4k and higher.

    OTA stations likely will not lose sub channels often that pays them to carry whatever to have bandwidth to have 4k or higher.
    Every OTA have 1 to 7 or more sub channels... Philly 6ABC HD is 6.1 and 2 subs at 6.2 6.3. but WACPH 4.1 has 6 subs 4.2 to 4.7. https://nocable.org/tv-list...9135-philadelphia-pa They have contacts to Comcast etc too and would upgrade the entire station to 4k etc for many years, even Decades.

    Comcast FiOS and others are "giving away" many premium like Stars and HBO in bundle packages to try to stop "cord cutting" right now and hate to give TV channels more bandwidth. Their already compressing most TV channel to near death levels now to give most of bandwidth to IP traffic as normal Web use and Netflix et al that often pays them. Even ignoring "Net Neutral" issues... Many Streaming services have paid to have servers directly in Comcast and other data farms to prevent lag etc. Others use Akamai services and similar that often does same w/ servers at Comcast etc or near to the end users to reduce lag and other problems.

    You may get 1G data planes but last mile to your house is often Not what causes DL or UL issues. Most are any or all hops from home to whatever server or often the server itself limits speeds to all users. PFF is 20+ hops away for most US users. Several just to get thru your ISP, more to get thru trans-Atlantic fiber, more across the EU to finally get to last few hops to PFF. Then add more hops for you get pictures and ads from 3rd party servers. Any router in any hop or servers can slow down your connection or even timeout.

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    Mickey_Moose
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    Report this Post01-31-2019 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mickey_MooseClick Here to visit Mickey_Moose's HomePageClick Here to Email Mickey_MooseSend a Private Message to Mickey_MooseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Bottom line is it all depends on the source material, period. Crap in, you are most likely going to get crap out. Just because something is in 4k/1080/720 (or whatever) does not mean it is going to be an awesome picture unless the original has been remastered or at the very least up-scaled.

    Higher resolutions do help with larger tv's as well.

    edit - btw near everything you get over cable, etc is only at 720 compressed, for true higher resolutions you need a better source like BD. Satellite radio is the same where they compress the crap out it - the majority of the population couldn't really care less, so they just do it. Remember most kids today grew up with MP3's, which are a fraction of the original (sampled and compressed) so they don't usually know better when it comes to audio or video. lol

    [This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 01-31-2019).]

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