I really don't understand your position. Are you for illegal immigration? Or just against the wall? Could you tell me why illegal immigration is a good thing for America?
[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 01-09-2019).]
I really don't understand your position. Are you for illegal immigration? Or just against the wall? Could you tell me why illegal immigration is a good thing for America?
If you read the information in my links, you will see why high levels of immigration are good for America.
I am certainly not for complete open boarders, but I am in support of much higher levels of immigration and not wasting time and money trying to stop it.
The wall is above and beyond moronic. The best wall is an economically strong Mexico, people will find a way in one way or another so we have to address the root cause and support economic growth in countries other than our own.
Countries that stifle immigration are dying. Immigration is necessary for first world countries to remain economically and socially strong.
There are four problems with the way the left frames this debate, which prevent productive discourse. I have divided these errors into two classifications:
1) They intentionally confuse the issue in two ways:
They ignore the distinction between lawful immigration and illegal intrusion. The former provides opportunity and relief, while the latter is an invasion, causing suffering, destruction and death.
They mischaracterize border security as a closed border. Border security is a controlled border.
2) They make erroneous claims about entire groups of people, based on the characteristics of some members of the group. They do this in two ways:
They assume that all immigrants are of a specific racial group. This is simple racism. They use this error to accuse others of racism.
They state that because most immigrants are not criminal, immigrants are not criminals. Some are criminals, very dangerous criminals. These are the invaders. They disrupt society and we do not want them here. No reasonable person would.
The argument is actually about controlling our borders to prevent an invasion. It is not about greed or racial prejudice, as the left would have us believe.
If you read the information in my links, you will see why high levels of immigration are good for America.
Immigration is a good thing, illegal immigration is an invasion. An invasion is a bad thing. It’s really pretty simple when you stop and think about it. (see my above post: They ignore the distinction between lawful immigration and illegal intrusion.)
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I am certainly not for complete open boarders, but I am in support of much higher levels of immigration and not wasting time and money trying to stop it.
How does a nation control the level of immigration without the ability to effectively control her borders? (see my above post: The argument is actually about controlling our borders to prevent an invasion.)
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The wall is above and beyond moronic. The best wall is an economically strong Mexico, people will find a way in one way or another so we have to address the root cause and support economic growth in countries other than our own.
This is an issue that Mexico must address, instead of blaming the U.S.A. We would be more than willing to help. Also, not all immigrants are Mexicans. (see my above post: They assume that all immigrants are of a specific racial group.)
How much time have you spent in Mexico? Have you studied Mexico’s political history?
The Democratic Party presentation after the POTUS message was interesting to watch. These are the people in charge of the Democratic party? Wow! It was like watching a grade 'C' comedy; acting, script, setting and all....
Not deflecting, just recovering from surgery. No pain meds.
I am for a wall. I lock my doors at night.
I am 100% for legal immigration. I have never wavered on this subject. My family are immigrants.
I believe that we are moving forward as a country only because of Republican values. Democratic values put power into an entity. I sponsor self relieance.
I wish for no one to ever be hurt. That is only a wish though, and I am able to comprehend the differences between right and wrong, reality and fantasy.
If you want to know me, then you come to the right place. I used to open my life like a book, but due to liberals that frequent this forum I no longer wish to present myself in such a way. I will not be silenced though. Not going to happen. Nor will I ever, or ever have I reached out to cause harm to any member here. Funny leftists.
I am educated. I am a business owner. I pay taxes. I am not in debt. I did this. I am not the forum's greatest intellectual. Not by a long shot, but I am able to hold conversation with Kings and Jesters.
The Democratic Party presentation after the POTUS message was interesting to watch. These are the people in charge of the Democratic party? Wow! It was like watching a grade 'C' comedy; acting, script, setting and all....
I absolutely do not believe that Chuck and Nancy watched the President. Scripted and rehearsed.
The Wife said it looked like "When Mars Attacked".
I had the feeling that Nancy was a vulture, and Chuck a gargoyle. Ominous.
President Trump sounded rather mundane. Just my opinion. I do not really care for the man personally, but his policies and direction for this great country are in line with mine for the most part. The numbers are rather wonderful for most Americans, yet Chicken Little is the song of the left?
This is an issue that Mexico must address, instead of blaming the U.S.A. We would be more than willing to help. Also, not all immigrants are Mexicans. (see my above post: They assume that all immigrants are of a specific racial group.)
How much time have you spent in Mexico? Have you studied Mexico’s political history?
Again, you completely ignored the actual facts surrounding my point.
And no, Mexico's economic history is very much our fault. All of Latin and South America's economic and political history is our fault. We have been messing with these countries for centuries with no regard for their well being. We have stolen land, toppled governments, encouraged corruption, and funded their drug cartels. South America is a mess because of us.
Again, you completely ignored the actual facts surrounding my point.
And no, Mexico's economic history is very much our fault. All of Latin and South America's economic and political history is our fault. We have been messing with these countries for centuries with no regard for their well being. We have stolen land, toppled governments, encouraged corruption, and funded their drug cartels. Click to show South America is a mess because of us.
Sorry son, not because of me. I do not drink or do drugs. I have not stolen any land. I messed with no countries. Even all of the times that I went to Mexico, I have never had an issue.
Your us does not include me. If you believe it does, than please tell me how and where. If I am wrong, then I will correct. I cannot imagine the same from you though.
[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 01-09-2019).]
The numbers declined as our economy declined. Now that we are back on track, illegal border crossings have greatly increased. Perhaps up to date data would be better to look at than old data.
PBS is not a credible source in my eyes. Their information is heavily biased.
I am not against legal immigration. My forebears came to this country in 1848 from Ireland. I oppose illegal immigration, and a loosely controlled border.
I take issue with your assessment that our country is to blame for all of our neighbors problems.
Again, you completely ignored the actual facts surrounding my point.
And no, Mexico's economic history is very much our fault. All of Latin and South America's economic and political history is our fault. We have been messing with these countries for centuries with no regard for their well being. We have stolen land, toppled governments, encouraged corruption, and funded their drug cartels. South America is a mess because of us.
I don't even know where to begin, so I will just say that your unbridled hatred of my country is equaled only by your ignorance of the history of the entire western hemisphere.
I have said it before: I fear for your students and their future victims.
Originally posted by Tony Kania: Sorry son, not because of me. I do not drink or do drugs. I have not stolen any land. I messed with no countries. Even all of the times that I went to Mexico, I have never had an issue.
Your us does not include me. If you believe it does, than please tell me how and where. If I am wrong, then I will correct. I cannot imagine the same from you though.
You live on stolen land. Your business does well based on the exploitation of other societies. The people you vote for have passed drug laws that fuel these cartels. The large value of your dollar has been dependent on the low value of other currency from poor countries. Your clothes are made in these countries, the metal from your tools is mined in them, the air you breath comes from their forests.
You eat beef? You should be eating Brazilian beef, but we tax the hell out of it to protect our own farmers. Even though we export insane amounts to other countries, we purposely stifle Brazilian beef for our own benefit.
You are completely intertwined with the world economy whether you like it or not. You are responsible for the actions of your government because you have a voice in your government. WE are responsible for these things.
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Originally posted by olejoedad:
I read your links, threedog.
The numbers declined as our economy declined. Now that we are back on track, illegal border crossings have greatly increased. Perhaps up to date data would be better to look at than old data.
PBS is not a credible source in my eyes. Their information is heavily biased.
I am not against legal immigration. My forebears came to this country in 1848 from Ireland. I oppose illegal immigration, and a loosely controlled border.
I take issue with your assessment that our country is to blame for all of our neighbors problems.
Ah, the modern conservatives defense. "I don't like the facts which means they are biased".
Just for you, here is another source. And here is another one.
I am sure you can find one study that says the impact is negative, and then use that to dismiss the 100s of other studies that say the opposite. Or you could just admit that you could possibly be wrong.
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Originally posted by williegoat:
I don't even know where to begin, so I will just say that your unbridled hatred of my country is equaled only by your ignorance of the history of the entire western hemisphere.
I have said it before: I fear for your students and their future victims.
GREAT counter argument. I was only a history major with a focus on the history of the Americas. But what would I know?
Here, please use this wiki page to read up on how much we have royally f'd south america over the past two centuries
Well damn, I thought I was going to adopt a dog this afternoon, but I am thinking that after the tongue lashing by Threedog, I am going full on leftist and getting a cat or eight!
I cannot feel sorry for the actions of others. I pay my own ten fold. You encourage me to not be you.
A twelve year old study, and a two and a half year old brief.
Current economic conditions have invalidated their conclusions.
Have you anything a bit more up to date, and not from Progressive sources?
Edit to add..
History was one of my minors (double major, double minor) in college, back in the 70's. I have had a lifelong passion for the subject. My reviews of college course content over the years has shown that the subject matter now taught is in conflict with what was taught to my generation.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 01-09-2019).]
Again, you completely ignored the actual facts surrounding my point.
And no, Mexico's economic history is very much our fault. All of Latin and South America's economic and political history is our fault. We have been messing with these countries for centuries with no regard for their well being. We have stolen land, toppled governments, encouraged corruption, and funded their drug cartels. South America is a mess because of us.
Perhaps you should go there and help them out. Or perhaps all of the people wanting in here should take their contributions to south America and make it great.
Perhaps you should go there and help them out. Or perhaps all of the people wanting in here should take their contributions to south America and make it great.
A twelve year old study, and a two and a half year old brief.
Current economic conditions have invalidated their conclusions.
Have you anything a bit more up to date, and not from Progressive sources?
Edit to add..
History was one of my minors (double major, double minor) in college, back in the 70's. I have had a lifelong passion for the subject. My reviews of college course content over the years has shown that the subject matter now taught is in conflict with what was taught to my generation.
Do you have any sources saying immigration economically detrimental to the United States?
Considering everyone else in this thread just gives me a negative rating and ignores the sources/facts.
I have several. It is not my responsibility to educate you. I have suggested, in the recent past, that you expand your sources in your search for the truth. Try it, you will learn from the excercise.
I really don't understand your position. Are you for illegal immigration? Or just against the wall? Could you tell me why illegal immigration is a good thing for America?
I appreciate the earnest questioning as opposed to the typical “If you don’t support the wall then you just want all the illegals to flow in!” They’re not mutually exclusive. I’m definitely not for illegal immigration however, I don’t support the wall either; it’s nothing but the president seeking a symbolic win on our dime. It’s the equivalent of your co-worker spending your paycheck on their program to tell everyone how awesome they are. It’s a con and a complete waste of money. I’ve been to the border numerous times. We have way better solutions than a physical wall for example, for about 1/100th the cost of the wall, we can install a series of ground based radar systems that show where people are coming in and give a significant advanced warning to border patrol.
Further evidence of this being nothing more than a dog whistle for his base. Back in 2012, immigration was near the bottom of the list of items (Source = http://www.people-press.org...-the-2012-campaign/) of concern. The concern for either the deficit or healthcare were nearly double. The deficit is further off the rails, healthcare costs continue to increase, and illegal immigration declines, and for whatever reason, now magically it’s a national emergency. It’s because Trump doesn’t want people ridiculing him for the exact same reason he ridiculed Obama.
This is literally a distraction by Trump to distract from the real issues. The deficit is out of control and his policies have exacerbated it (remember when he said the growth would pay for the tax cut?. Healthcare costs continue to increase. (Remember when he said he had a replacement healthcare plan that would lower costs and everyone would be covered?). And now it’s creating this false emergency to build a wall that he swore up and down Mexico would pay for.
Further evidence of this being nothing more than a dog whistle for his base.
That's twice now in this thread that you've used that analogy.
A "dog whistle" generally refers to something that can only be heard by dogs.
Since you are obviously expounding on the subject, it's obvious YOU also hear this "dog whistle", as you call it.
That begs the question, WHO is "his base", according to you?
Further, While you bemoan the projected cost of the wall, that cannot reasonably be your actual concern seeing as the annual federal budget exceeds $3.9 TRILLION against $3.3 +/- TRILLION in revenues. The United States government has spent approx. $1.3 TRILLION in just discretionary spending EACH YEAR over the past decade, so the cost of the border wall becomes comparatively miniscule.
The "dog whistle" that you are blowing sounds a lot like simple leftist hate directed at President Trump, nothing more.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-09-2019).]
Do you have any sources saying immigration economically detrimental to the United States?
No one here is arguing against immigration. The problem is still "illegal immigration" a.k.a. invasion.
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Considering everyone else in this thread just gives me a negative rating and ignores the sources/facts.
"Everyone"? Another inaccurate generalization. I have never given anyone a neg and probably never will. I proved this once before to your doppelganger, Furgal.
"Everyone"? Another inaccurate generalization. I have never given anyone a neg and probably never will. I proved this once before to your doppelganger, Furgal.
They ignore the distinction between lawful immigration and illegal intrusion.
They make erroneous claims about entire groups of people, based on the characteristics of some members of the group.
This is why discussion with you is futile.
I also noted the intentional conflation in the articles and "data" that he offered as his "proof", as well as his own statements.
It is a fool's errand to allow a leftist to lead you down the rabbit hole of opinion and conflicting, self-serving statistics.
Whether it is their hatred of President Trump or their empathy for poor people from foreign lands, it is ultimately and invariably only about emotions for them.
Anything else is a ruse , a distraction or an attempt to shut down discussion
By the way, it is my observation that the left sees no distinction between lawful immigration and illegal intrusion. Their oft repeated slogan; "No human being is illegal", gives ample evidence of that.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-09-2019).]
By the way, it is my observation that the left sees no distinction between lawful immigration and illegal intrusion. Their oft repeated slogan; "No human being is illegal", gives ample evidence of that.
The statement that "No human being is illegal" is just another misleading ploy. Of course people are not illegal, but their actions may be. It is much like their assertion that guns cause crime.
The left sees "1984" not as a warning, but rather an instruction manual.
And how do we know how many illegals are here again?
It's been quoted as "11 million" for decades now... It doesn't seem to go up or down unless there is an argument either direction. But like other things that are made up, there is nothing to substantiate the claim.
"Oh, there are only 3 meth labs in the county because that's all we've caught."
[This message has been edited by Fats (edited 01-09-2019).]
That's twice now in this thread that you've used that analogy.
A "dog whistle" generally refers to something that can only be heard by dogs.
Since you are obviously expounding on the subject, it's obvious YOU also hear this "dog whistle", as you call it.
That begs the question, WHO is "his base", according to you?
You keep trying to derail my responses with non-sequitur/gish gollop. If you are unfamiliar as to what the proverbial political dog whistle is, that's on you.
I'll repeat: ~4 years ago, Trump supporters gave very little care to the illegal immigration scenario; they (including myself) cared more about our deficit spending and increasing health care costs. Because Trump has done nothing to curtail the deficit spending (he's made it worse) and health care costs continue to go up, Trump simply started blaming illegal immigration (which is on the decline) for all these problems. Because his lap dogs/sycophants can't blame Obama for deficit/health care issues any more, they have essentially completely forgotten about the massive ridicule they shoveled for those items.
This cry about the border being a national emergency is simply a distraction from Trumps failures on other fronts.
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Further, While you bemoan the projected cost of the wall, that cannot reasonably be your actual concern seeing as the annual federal budget exceeds $3.9 TRILLION against $3.3 +/- TRILLION in revenues. The United States government has spent approx. $1.3 TRILLION in just discretionary spending EACH YEAR over the past decade, so the cost of the border wall becomes comparatively miniscule.
The "dog whistle" that you are blowing sounds a lot like simple leftist hate directed at President Trump, nothing more.
I don't hate him but you seem to have animosity towards anything that challenges your preconceptions. The wall is a waste of money. $25B is insignificant? That's QTY 2 Ford Class aircraft carriers. . .
Deficit spending was made worse due to the Democrats withholding support for the military unless there were significant increases in social programs in the first budget Trump signed. He signed it only because of the needs for increasing the budget for the armed forces, something that had been grossly neglected under the previous administration.
Deficit spending was made worse due to the Democrats withholding support for the military unless there were significant increases in social programs in the first budget Trump signed. He signed it only because of the needs for increasing the budget for the armed forces, something that had been grossly neglected under the previous administration.
You could cut every single government program (NASA, DOE, ETC); if you simply kept the DoD, SS, Medicare and Medicaid, our country would -still- be running a deficit.
That should clue you in as to where all the spending is really out of control (I don't mind cuts to other things, but these programs take up the lions share of our deficit).
So reigning in military spending is 'neglecting' it?
[This message has been edited by RandomTask (edited 01-10-2019).]
I do not believe that you lied. I have an understanding that you are using your feelings as facts.
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You keep trying to derail my responses with non-sequitur/gish gollop. If you are unfamiliar as to what the proverbial political dog whistle is, that's on you.Click to show
I'll repeat: ~4 years ago, Trump supporters gave very little care to the illegal immigration scenario; they (including myself) cared more about our deficit spending and increasing health care costs. Because Trump has done nothing to curtail the deficit spending (he's made it worse) and health care costs continue to go up, Trump simply started blaming illegal immigration (which is on the decline) for all these problems. Because his lap dogs/sycophants can't blame Obama for deficit/health care issues any more, they have essentially completely forgotten about the massive ridicule they shoveled for those items.
This cry about the border being a national emergency is simply a distraction from Trumps failures on other fronts.
That is President Trump.
I absolutely cared about illegal immigration, and this forum would prove that. MANY here alone spoke of this quite often within these walls. You are forgetting this, or do not understand? As well as other concerns within this nation, you are projecting.
Health care costs are going up due to those that do not pay. There is a thread here with links about an illegal alien family that bilked Sacred Heart Medical Center here in Spokane for $1.38 million dollars 9 years ago. Just one child's care that went unpaid and the hospital had to eat the costs.
So, I am a lap dog/sycophant? Smooth, real smooth.
Let us say that your $58 billion number stands. That means that for every tax paying citizen (not those that do not pay), they owe Just under $1,000 per year toward illegal immigration. Give or take a few hundred. And you wonder/blame President Trump for this deficit?
Edited for spelling and math.
[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 01-10-2019).]
I have not stolen any land. I messed with no countries. Even all of the times that I went to Mexico, I have never had an issue. 
