Theyve been talking nonstop for over a week about hurricane Florence. I saw an interview with a guy visiting NC. They asked him why he didnt evacuate when everyone was told to leave. He said he hadnt heard anything about it, and apparently couldnt tell almost everywhere was deserted (dumb enough to must be a liberal). Everyone in the proposed strike zone was told there was a mandatory evacuation days ago. Apparently most did leave but there are always some who stay. Theyre talking about all the rescues they are performing now. The way I see it, if you stayed when you were told to leave, your on your own. You have 2 choices to me...fend for yourself and hope you dont drown, get electrocuted or killed by debris...or...have to pay the costs involved in your rescue (from your own stupidity). That would be the wages for the time and number of people involved and rental charges for any equipment like vehicles, boats or special tools used. $5000-$10,000 per rescue sounds good. Funds collected could be shared by rescue units and help to people who DID leave as told. If any rescuers are injured, your responsible for their medical costs, and if they are killed, you get charged with manslaughter. Not only does the country have to bear the costs of disasters like this, but liberals believe its the countries duty to give everyone whatever they need for free...even if their losses are from their own stupidity ignoring things like evacuation orders. I think its great to help those who lose everything...but only if they heeded what they were told to do. The family who fled gets help rebuilding whatever they lost, ones who stayed...tough luck.
The way I see it, if you stayed when you were told to leave, your on your own.
...you get charged with manslaughter.
Fire, rescue, emergency, etc DIDN'T go out during the heart of the storm. Fire/police stations were fully manned but nobody went out until the worst of it was over. Being a S L O W moving storm, it may be 24hrs before rescue teams venture out into the weather to assist those who chose to stay.
As far as being charged w/manslaughter, that's not possible. The definition of manslaughter is: "The unjustifiable, inexcusable, and intentional killing of a human being without deliberation, premeditation, and malice. The unlawful killing of a human being without any deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due caution and circumspection." If a LEO, firefighter, rescue person, etc dies in the performance of their duty, they were still doing their duty and had the choice to NOT do their duty (legally, if not ethically). That would be the same as saying that, if you start a fire in your home because you fell asleep w/a lit cigarette and a fireman dies, you should be charged w/manslaughter. They know they can die performing their jobs and do them anyway. That's not manslaughter. That's heroism.
LOL. Not sure why he's leaning WITH the wind instead of against it. Not at all saying that the storm isn't brutal, because it is but he should leave the acting to "real" actors.
OK, Monkeyman. I see that then. There needs to still be some serious consequences though. This is some of what I found on a law website.
...second Degree Murder: The states differ more significantly on their definition of second degree murder than they do on their definition of first degree murder. In some states the act must be premeditated in order for the defendant to be charged with second degree murder and in other states premeditation is NOT necessary. Third Degree Murder and Felony Murder: Not all states have a criminal system that includes third degree murder. Those states that can charge defendants with third degree murder typically do so for any type of murder that is not a first or second degree murder. A felony murder is when the defendant kills someone without the intent to kill but with the intent to commit a different crime.
It should then also be possible for families to sue the rescuee for unlawful death...then a jury decides if their action indirectly caused the death. That should also be possible in your scenario of a guy starting a fire accidentally that results in a firemans death.
That video is interesting. If its legit, and the newscaster and pedestrians are both as they appear, maybe the people walking are sheltered by a building or wall out of view of the camera. It certainly is not above media to hype a situation. I can see them seeking out a specific spot where wind was strongest. We do know for a fact there was 70-90 mph wind in the area. I know walking downtown on just a normal day among the buildings here, there are much higher winds blowing between them than just out in the open. Its been a joke that men would hang out near those areas at lunch to watch the secretaries dresses blow up unexpectedly.
I guess your both OK with the rescue costs paid by rescuee. In an accident, like in a car or even hiking, the victims are charged for ambulance and EMTs, and Lifeflights deemed necessary. I know someone who was transported just to another hospital in the area to be treated for something relatively minor. He didnt know they were moving him till they loaded him in an ambulance...he could have been driven, or even driven himself. He was charged several thousand dollars for the ambulance ride.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-15-2018).]
I kind of agree with Roger. If you stay, and then they need to rescue your dumb azz, you ought to get to pay for the trouble.
Conversely, When the storm is over, they need to stop denying access to people who want to go back and check on their homes. They keep everyone out but the looters. People are going back to homes that have been stripped clean because they were not allowed to return in a timely manner. And yes, I get it... It may not be safe. Again... that's on the people returning.
OK, Monkeyman. I see that then. There needs to still be some serious consequences though. This is some of what I found on a law website.
I guess your both OK with the rescue costs paid by rescuee.
I'm ok w/rescue costs being paid for by the rescuees (don't know if that's a word but it works) under SOME circumstances. If somebody had a chance to leave and chose to "ride it out" then had to get rescued, they should definitely have to pay something. If they didn't leave due to the nature of their jobs (medical, fire, LEO, rescue, military, etc) then I have no problem footing the bill. I completely DISagree in criminal charges just due to a rescue. I think either an entity (city, town, state, etc) and/or a private firm (ambulance service, LifeFlight) should have the right to sue in civil court.
I'm ok w/rescue costs being paid for by the rescuees (don't know if that's a word but it works) under SOME circumstances. If somebody had a chance to leave and chose to "ride it out" then had to get rescued, they should definitely have to pay something. If they didn't leave due to the nature of their jobs (medical, fire, LEO, rescue, military, etc) then I have no problem footing the bill. I completely DISagree in criminal charges just due to a rescue. I think either an entity (city, town, state, etc) and/or a private firm (ambulance service, LifeFlight) should have the right to sue in civil court.
Just to offer a bit of perspective to this ongoing "debate":
It was almost exactly one year ago that hurricane Irma hit us here in Florida.
Since both my son and my daughter, (who live within 15 miles of us), each have their own families and are parents to our 6 Grandchildren, in an abundance of caution, we urged them to go ahead and "evacuate" and go up near Atlanta to stay with friends of ours. We all agreed that they would call us and check in along the way and upon arrival. Both of their families decided to travel north together as a "mini convoy" in their own vehicles for added security.
They left their homes more than 28 hours prior to landfall of the hurricane. No more than 1 hour after their departure they both called back and said they were returning home.
Interstate 75 was a "parking lot" with all traffic at a stand-still headed North as far as the Florida / Georgia border. ALL gas stations along the route were out of fuel. State police, sheriffs and local law enforcement were telling travelers to return home rather than be stuck on the highway during the storm.
It was more than 4 days after the hurricane passed that fuel supplies and food in the grocery stores began to come in and another 4 days before electric service was restored in my area.
It's very tempting and easy to pontificate about things that you have not had experience with.
My family has "up close and personal" experience with the following storms:
1984 Tropical Storm Isidore, (made landfall less than 2 miles from our front door) 1987 Hurricane Floyd 1988 Tropical Storm Chris 1991 Tropical Storm Ana 1992 August, Hurricane Andrew 1992 September, Tropical Storm Earl 1994 Tropical Storm Gordon 1995 August 2, Hurricane Erin 1995 August 23,Tropical Storm Jerry 1999 Tropical Storm Harvey 2004 Hurricane Jeanne (exited back into the Gulf right over my home) 2004 Hurricane Charley 2004 Hurricane Francis 2017 Hurricane Irma
(I may have forgotten a few storms but I believe that's most of them we have experienced)
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 09-15-2018).]
I'm ok w/rescue costs being paid for by the rescuees (don't know if that's a word but it works) under SOME circumstances. If somebody had a chance to leave and chose to "ride it out" then had to get rescued, they should definitely have to pay something. If they didn't leave due to the nature of their jobs (medical, fire, LEO, rescue, military, etc) then I have no problem footing the bill. I completely DISagree in criminal charges just due to a rescue. I think either an entity (city, town, state, etc) and/or a private firm (ambulance service, LifeFlight) should have the right to sue in civil court.
quote
Originally posted by randye:
Just to offer a bit of perspective to this ongoing "debate":
It was almost exactly one year ago that we had hurricane Irma hit us here in Florida.
Since both my son and my daughter, (who live within 15 miles of us), each have their own families and are parents to our 6 Grandchildren, in an abundance of caution, we urged them to go ahead and "evacuate" and go up near Atlanta to stay with friends of ours. We all agreed that they would call us and check in along the way and upon arrival. Both of their families decided to travel north together as a "mini convoy" in their own vehicles for added security.
They left their homes more than 28 hours prior to landfall of the hurricane. No more than 1 hour after their departure they both called back and said they were returning home.
Interstate 75 was a "parking lot" with all traffic at a stand-still headed North as far as the Florida / Georgia border. ALL gas stations along the route were out of fuel. State police, sheriffs and local law enforcement were telling travelers to return homerather than be stuck on the highway during the storm.
It was more than 4 days after the hurricane passed that fuel supplies and food in the grocery stores began to come in and another 4 days before electric service was restored in my area.
It's very tempting and easy to pontificate about things that you have not had experience with.
My family has up close and personal experience with the following storms:
1984 Tropical Storm Isidore, (made landfall less than 2 miles from our front door) 1987 Hurricane Floyd 1988 Tropical Storm Chris 1991 Tropical Storm Ana 1992 August, Hurricane Andrew 1992 September, Tropical Storm Earl 1994 Tropical Storm Gordon 1995 August 2, Hurricane Erin 1995 August 23,Tropical Storm Jerry 1999 Tropical Storm Harvey 2004 Hurricane Jeanne (exited back into the Gulf right over my home) 2004 Hurricane Charley 2004 Hurricane Francis 2017 Hurricane Irma
(I may have forgotten a few storms but I believe that's most of them we have experienced)
A couple things, my friend. 1st, the situation your family was in would surely (in my mind) qualify for free rescues, if needed. They tried to get out but couldn't. That's a whole lot different than "riding the storm out" just because you (not YOU in particular) are too bullheaded to go. There are always exceptions to every rule. Senior citizens in a nursing home or patients in a hospital are another couple of situations where they may not be evacuated even if there's a mandatory evac.
Second, I've been in my fair share of hurricanes as well as earthquakes, tornadoes, blizzards, etc so I know how it is.
[This message has been edited by Monkeyman (edited 09-15-2018).]
A couple things, my friend. 1st, the situation your family was in would surely (in my mind) qualify for free rescues, if needed. They tried to get out but couldn't. That's a whole lot different than "riding the storm out" just because you (not YOU in particular) are too bullheaded to go. There are always exceptions to every rule. Senior citizens in a nursing home or patients in a hospital are another couple of situations where they may not be evacuated even if there's a mandatory evac.
Second, I've been in my fair share of hurricanes as well as earthquakes, tornadoes, blizzards, etc so I know how it is.
I probably failed to make my point clear: As population increases, without a corresponding increase in infrastructure and resources, the ability to evacuate generally decreases.
This holds particularly true in certain "popular", (pun intended), areas of the country.
It is important to understand the legal reasons why a "mandatory evacuation order" is given. Other than the despicable law enforcement actions that happened during post storm Katrina in leftist controlled Louisiana, mandatory evacuations are rarely if ever enforced.
The principal legal, (governmental), reasons for ordering a "mandatory evacuation" in any municipality in the United States, are:
(1) to open the door to provide resources to evacuate to those who otherwise are without,
(2) the need to decide on behalf of those otherwise unable to,
(3) to stress the urgency and seriousness of the situation to those otherwise unconvinced.
(Fairchild, Amy L. et al, The Challenge of Mandatory Evacuation: Providing For and Deciding For, Health Affairs 25, no. 4, 958 (2006).)
Only a couple of states presently have (untested), legislation that might make you happy:
North Carolina and Texas law provides that people who refuse an order to evacuate are civilly liable for the costs of a later rescue—while making it clear that such a rescue may not come at all.
(See V.T.C.A., Government Code §418.185; NC Gen. Stat. §166-A15.1 (2006).)
Exactly HOW they intend to bill potential rescued persons under those laws remains a mystery.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 09-16-2018).]
randye, I have experienced two interstate 10 Hurricane evacuation routes. Both side reply way open One Direction only. Virtual parking lots. So, I got off the highway and went north. Then continued my westward destination. Gas in food were plentiful. I made my trip in only one hour of extra time extra normal time. I understand that this is not possible in Florida. You have to deal with Where are you choose to live. I am with Roger. People who choose do you live in high risk areas should pay and emergency relief fund instead of expecting everybody else to pay.
If a jurisdiction has a mandatory evacuation, they need to insure there is a workable route, like make the entire highway system outbound ONLY. A lot of times I beat freeway traffic by a huge margin by just taking a backroad no one else is using. Almost everyone believes a freeway is the fastest route anywhere and it often is not. ie/ during Columbus evening rush hour I-71 and I-70 which intersect right in downtown is packed in all directions. Ive often taken surface streets to the edge of town in any direction and even with stoplights, I beat those on the freeways to the same point by 30 mins to an hour.
Yes, I am speaking only of people who disregard an evacuation order by choice, and do what they want. There are circumstances where you can try and it just dont work out...entirely different. If there are signs on a beach saying stay out of the water because of shark sightings...and you go in anyway, its on you. I can see rescue people refusing to go after you when your attacked. Do you think the shark victim (or survivors) can sue them ? Theres a point where its stupid to try to rescue someone from their own stupidity. I also dont believe deliberate drug users overdosing should be treated with Narcan. as they say, they made their bed...let them lie in it.
randye, I have experienced two interstate 10 Hurricane evacuation routes. Both side reply way open One Direction only. Virtual parking lots. So, I got off the highway and went north. Then continued my westward destination. Gas in food were plentiful. I made my trip in only one hour of extra time extra normal time. I understand that this is not possible in Florida. You have to deal with Where are you choose to live. I am with Roger. People who choose do you live in high risk areas should pay and emergency relief fund instead of expecting everybody else to pay.
What is not a "high risk area"?
While it is good to hear that gas and food "were plentiful" for your experience, that was not the case here, thus neither the interstate highways OR the backroads were an option. I should also note that in western Florida there are only 3 primary routes that go northbound, (US 19, US 41 and Interstate 75), all of those were "virtual parking lots" and historically have been during every major storm here.
Additionally, we do pay rather high costs into "relief funds" here in Florida. Our insurance rates for home and auto add a substantial premium cost for hurricane disaster and our electric utilities are also higher due to added premiums for hurricane disaster funds. In addition to that a good portion of our property taxes also go toward disaster relief contingency funds.
In that case, if you live in high risk areas and you pay higher amounts in taxes and fees, it should fall on each state to take care of relief out of those...not the Federal Government. That makes the rest of the entire country subsidize your living in that high risk area. Why should someone in Kansas cover your risk of living on a Florida beach ? I dont think Georgians pay Iowan farmers during a drought.
In that case, if you live in high risk areas and you pay higher amounts in taxes and fees, it should fall on each state to take care of relief out of those...not the Federal Government. That makes the rest of the entire country subsidize your living in that high risk area. Why should someone in Kansas cover your risk of living on a Florida beach ? I dont think Georgians pay Iowan farmers during a drought.
I check the flood map before moving to Palo Alto, the flood plain ended a few blocks away, no flood coverage requirement. Not a year later, the expanded the flood zones, I had to get flood coverage, I called to itch and the insurance man said that they were expanded due to floods in XYZ(I think it was Texas). $1K a year that first year, until $3K a year before we moved(I think they said it was hurricane Irene). I never had a flood, I personally swept the gutter when there was lots of leaves. I subsidized the rest of the country. This last move I made sure I was far away from a so called flood zone.
Yes, but like I said you need the context. You can obviously see the trees and rain blowing, and it was strong enough to blow over the barricades . One could make the case for the background guys being edited in. I personally think there was something out of the picture that blocked off some of the wind where they were walking from, like a building, fence to even a truck or bus.
Yes, but like I said you need the context. You can obviously see the trees and rain blowing, and it was strong enough to blow over the barricades . One could make the case for the background guys being edited in. I personally think there was something out of the picture that blocked off some of the wind where they were walking from, like a building, fence to even a truck or bus.
Have you ever been outside in a TS or a hurricane?
I'm sure you will claim that you have, but it sure doesn't sound like it from your speculation.
Have you ever been outside in a TS or a hurricane?
I'm sure you will claim that you have, but it sure doesn't sound like it from your speculation.
You would be wrong. Ive never been dumb enough to live in a hurricane prone area. I have lived in tornado alley in Tx and Okla though...although never really been near one. I think your chances of getting hit with a tornado are pretty slim. I think hurricane winds come from generally one direction, so why couldnt something be in line to block out some of that wind ? If TS means thunderstorm, ive been out in plenty. You can always find somewhere to block off the wind and rain. The only place ive ever been that was storming and couldnt get out of it was flying. You usually dont see many walls or buildings up there.
Interesting to see some of the various opinions on this here. I live in Burgaw NC aprox 25 miles from where Florence made landfall. I am not in a low lying area. our county had a mandatory evacuation. I did not follow the mandatory evacuation. I made a decision based on the information I had available, and based off of my knowledge of my location. I was willing to live with the consequences of my actions. Was there risk involved? Sure there was some risk involved. There is risk involved with getting in a car and driving to the store. My county should NOT have had a mandatory evacuation. They should have focused on trying to get the people in low lying areas (of which our county has quite a few) out. In my opinion the mandatory evacuation likely made more of those folks stay, because of a lack of places to go.
ps we weathered the storm pretty well, we were without power for a few days, but overall I feel pretty fortunate. There are a lot of people in my area that lost everything they had.
