We're having terrible fires and smoke here in Washington. I know that most people here think that climate change is a hoax. I'm curious as to the reasons. Is it a denial that we are having global warming, denial that it is man caused, a belief that fossil fuels are the cause or that the solutions offered are not the right ones. Just asking and wondering if anyone has changed their mind one way or the other.
I'll step into this first. Global warming/cooling is a bunch of crap. Climate change is true/fair/accurate. The only think that is constant is change, right?
I am not in agreement that fossil fuels are the driver behind it all? I am not convinced. Is man behind it, for a portion of it yes! I beleive the largest drivers are out of the control of man, solar activiity, seismic activity, etc. Case in point...on a vacation a few years ago I was in Turkey at a ancient town called Ephesus. (Remember from the bible...Letters to the Ephesians? that place!) It was the 4th largest town the known world ~2000 years ago, and was a large trading port on the Mediterranean sea. Today the riuns of the town are ~3 miles inland from any water. This "change" happened in less than 2000 years! Most of the change was before the car and fossil fuels were heavily used.
Does the environment change? sure!
Are there man made imapcts in your neck of the woods? sure. The likelihood is that most of the areas had timber harvested, and the trees grew back but not in the same way the forest initial looked. Historically (hundreds/thousands of years) where there fires before...probably. The difference is that now man lives in these areas and has structures/infrastructure to protect, so that is a part of the change as well.
Man made climate change is undeniable. I live in the sixth larges metro area in the US, Phoenix. The climate here is absolutely hotter and more humid than it was when I first moved here nearly 50 years ago. This is due primarily to three factors.
There is much more concrete and asphalt here now, which retains more of the heat overnight.
There is a lot of artificial, non-native landscaping which requires a lot of water for maintenance.
Phoenix is in a valley which walls in the heat and humidity.
HOWEVER…..
…..this minor change is contained entirely within the valley and has absolutely no effect on the surrounding desert, much less the rest of the world. If the whole place were plowed under, things would return to normal within a year.
Global warming/climate change is a another anti-American/anti-capitalist scam. Please don’t allow yourself to be a victim or a tool.
I don't deny it, but I think what is missing from the debate is that... Yeah.. Some areas will suffer some negative changes, but other areas will have a positive effect from it.
I'm just not convinced that it is all doom and gloom and the whole world is going to go dark.
Yes, I've seen a noticeable warming from many years ago in the area. But it has all been positive. Long time ago, the winters were brutal with a lot of snow. Now the winters are mild and barely any snow.
The summers were hot and dry, now the summers are still hot but more moisture. Don't think there has been a drought around for many, many years.
The weather is much better in my opinion than many years ago. But that is just here. It may suck someplace else, but it hasn't been a negative affect at all.
I also don't hear about people starving in Africa anymore too. That seemed to be a huge problem back many years ago. Acid rain too. I don't hear about that at all anymore. Nor killer bees.
Back when the dinosaurs roamed, it was much hotter than it is now, but more consistent globally. Much of the water was in the atmosphere, creating a greenhouse on the surface. Dinosaurs were killed largely by cold temperatures.
I'm pretty sure Trump killed the dinosaurs. Trump, with help from the Russians and the ghost of Ol' Dick Nixon. Now they are focusing on the polar bears and baby seals.
I'm pretty sure Trump killed the dinosaurs. Trump, with help from the Russians and the ghost of Ol' Dick Nixon. Now they are focusing on the polar bears and baby seals.
Really.......? I just went through 8 years of blaming Bush, and now he gets no credit for the global climate change that killed dinosaurs? Disappointed,..I am But then I get confused by all the different names to blame the failures of liberalism on.
Dratt, just to give you a little perspective, Glen Beck has a nice video with a lot of statistics that kind of put a big damper on the whole idea that Global Warming is causing the increase in forest fires. Watch it and learn.
You hear many times that Bush couldn't find WMD's in Iraq when in fact they were found in many places. It's just that most people don't know that chemical weapons are WMDs. When I read someone repeating that old phrase I have to ask if they really meant nuclear weapons because chemical weapons are WMD and were found in large quantities in Iraq.
You hear many times that Bush couldn't find WMD's in Iraq when in fact they were found in many places. It's just that most people don't know that chemical weapons are WMDs. When I read someone repeating that old phrase I have to ask if they really meant nuclear weapons because chemical weapons are WMD and were found in large quantities in Iraq.
They were also moved by Iraq to their "brother" Baathist government in Syria.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 08-28-2018).]
" (mankind caused ) Global warming/cooling is a bunch of crap. Climate change is true/fair/accurate. The only thing that is constant is change, right? "
Climate has changed over time starting 5 billion years ago. If I recall, man has only existed maybe 15-20 million...or a drop in the bucket.
To be a supporter of Global Warming or Climate Change as it was rebranded, you must believe a number of things:
The Earth is warming
The warming is primarily caused by humans
The warming will be disastrous for the planet
Humans can stop the warming by controlling CO2 output
I think that #1 is true. I don't think #2 is proven. The planet came out of a cold period called The Little Ice Age in the mid 1800's. The majority of the warming happened before the bulk of the CO2 was emitted into the atmosphere in the mid 1900's. #3 is certainly not proven and there is contradictory historic data. Historically, warm periods have been very beneficial for humans and life on the planet. #4 is not proven either. I think it is a bit naive to think that humans can control the Earth's climate. Additionally, CO2 is a weak green house gas compared to water vapor. Water vapor is as much of a byproduct of combustion as CO2 is. I think the alarmists don't dare claim that the water coming out of the tail pipe of your car is going to destroy the Earth. They will be laughed at which is why they say CO2 instead.
We've had lots of landslide this year. Lots of rainfall, but all the hills sliding away is in the city. Some called it climate change, but none of this was a problem in the countryside.
They actually stated in the news the problem was from too much concrete in the city. The ground becomes saturated and the excess water is channeled into the sewers and they are overwhelmed.
To be a supporter of Global Warming or Climate Change as it was rebranded, you must believe a number of things:
The Earth is warming
The warming is primarily caused by humans
The warming will be disastrous for the planet
Humans can stop the warming by controlling CO2 output
I think that #1 is true. I don't think #2 is proven. The planet came out of a cold period called The Little Ice Age in the mid 1800's. The majority of the warming happened before the bulk of the CO2 was emitted into the atmosphere in the mid 1900's. #3 is certainly not proven and there is contradictory historic data. Historically, warm periods have been very beneficial for humans and life on the planet. #4 is not proven either. I think it is a bit naive to think that humans can control the Earth's climate. Additionally, CO2 is a weak green house gas compared to water vapor. Water vapor is as much of a byproduct of combustion as CO2 is. I think the alarmists don't dare claim that the water coming out of the tail pipe of your car is going to destroy the Earth. They will be laughed at which is why they say CO2 instead.
Agreed. This is all too simple for many "believers" to grasp. At the same time, because it's simple, they believe it must be wrong...
We had a couple of days so far this September that were the coldest on record. Im predicting a new ice age is around the corner. Were all going to be under mountains of ice.
I'll step into this first. Global warming/cooling is a bunch of crap. Climate change is true/fair/accurate. The only think that is constant is change, right?
I am not in agreement that fossil fuels are the driver behind it all? I am not convinced. Is man behind it, for a portion of it yes! I beleive the largest drivers are out of the control of man, solar activiity, seismic activity, etc. Case in point...on a vacation a few years ago I was in Turkey at a ancient town called Ephesus. (Remember from the bible...Letters to the Ephesians? that place!) It was the 4th largest town the known world ~2000 years ago, and was a large trading port on the Mediterranean sea. Today the riuns of the town are ~3 miles inland from any water. This "change" happened in less than 2000 years! Most of the change was before the car and fossil fuels were heavily used.
Does the environment change? sure!
Are there man made imapcts in your neck of the woods? sure. The likelihood is that most of the areas had timber harvested, and the trees grew back but not in the same way the forest initial looked. Historically (hundreds/thousands of years) where there fires before...probably. The difference is that now man lives in these areas and has structures/infrastructure to protect, so that is a part of the change as well.
Ephesus. One of the great harbor cities of the Roman Empire. It was built on real estate that is now several miles inland from the coast.
During the 2000 years between then and now, silt was carried by the downstream current of the Cayster River into the sea, where the silt settled to the bottom of the ancient harbor of Ephesus as sediment. As the sediment increased, it filled up the harbor and turned it into landfill. This is the reason that the site of this once great harbor city is now several miles inland from the coast. The coastline has been shifted that many miles by 2000 years of this natural landfill creating process.
This has happened all over the world, wherever there are rivers that flow into the sea. It's happening right now--Big Time--where the Mississippi River flows into the Gulf of Mexico.
In so far as the idea of global warming as a consequence of human dependence upon fossil fuels and other human-driven greenhouse gas emissions, Ephesus (and the like) is a moot point. It does not move the needle, one way or the other. It does not speak directly to the veracity of recent and ongoing global warming as a consequence of anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions. Ephesus (etc.) does not contradict or undermine this idea; nor does it support this idea.
Ephesus (etc.) is an example of something that is evident, but not relevant, in the context of anthropogenic global warming. This is part of a pattern of confusion that tends to characterize these informal discussions about climate change and global warming. It's a pattern of confusion that is more the rule, than the exception on this forum. Confusione Obdurat.
Just for the record, I did not stay overnight at a Holiday Inn Express. I used Google to confirm what I thought would be the explanation of how the ruins of a once great harbor city are to be found so many miles inland.
Agreed. This is all too simple for many "believers" to grasp. At the same time, because it's simple, they believe it must be wrong...
Yes, believers just believe what theyre told and by the ones telling them the most times. Anti climate change people dont harp on it over and over because they believe its just too much hogwash to make it worthwhile to argue about. Liberals also cant comprehend anything at all thats simple.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-14-2018).]
It's four "chunky" but very readable paragraphs. No equations or other math. Not any hard-to-understand scientific jargon.
Because someone referenced Water Vapor in this discussion. Water Vapor as a product of the same fossil fuel combustion process that releases man-made Carbon Dioxide into the atmosphere from the tailpipes of Internal Combustion Engine-powered road vehicles, trains, ships and aircraft. Or Water Vapor as a tailpipe emission from fuel cell-powered road vehicles, and (potentially) trains, ships and aircraft.
Not just vehicles, but fossil-fueled electrical power stations, home or portable generators, and building HVAC systems. All part of the same discussion. All, contributors to anthropogenic Carbon Dioxide and Water Vapor emissions.
These paragraphs that carry the aegis of the American Chemical Society explain the reasoning that has made Carbon Dioxide a target of the "investigation"--an indicted co-conspirator, charged with major (felony) responsibility for the crime of Anthropogenic Global Warming, and at the same time, exonerates Water Vapor of any criminal responsibility or legal liability in this matter.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 09-13-2018).]
Originally posted by rogergarrison: We had a couple of days so far this September that were the coldest on record. Im predicting a new ice age is around the corner. Were all going to be under mountains of ice.
Well, the global warming folks were right, and one point is the question of tipping point. There are giant holes opening in Russia that are most likely frozen methane. I think we maybe warming in some places, others not but, when we cool, it is going to suck because I think it will be sudden. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztninkgZ0ws
From what Ive learned, the earth has had 2, maybe 3 periods where it was a solid ball (Snowball) of ice in its lifetime. The warming after those periods created all the life on the planet following each of those. Man appeared in the warming after the final frozen period. So it appears to me global warming, or climate change has been good. Maybe it spurts the next stage of evolution.
