Here's the situation. 2009 Honda Odyssey. 3.5 V6. It appears to have broken the timing belt. Engine spins with the starter but appears to have no compression. No valve action when viewed through the oil cap. Of course, it's an interference engine. Dammit.
1. Is there any way to tell which cylinders have bent valves without taking the heads off? (I realize that I can go ahead an put another belt on, and then do a compression test. I don't really want to go to all that trouble, only to have to take it all apart again, though.)
2. Is there a decent chance that valves are all that's messed up? Are the pistons, rods, crank, and block likely okay? I don't want to go to the trouble of rebuilding the top side, to find that the engine is scrap, anyway.
For those that wonder... This is the second timing belt. First was changed at ~100K. Engine now has ~215K on it. We thought we had some more time. Obviously not.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 08-21-2018).]
I usually replace the belts between 70K and 80K miles, but some vehicles are more or less. I just went through this with my boss. It was $1,900 to repair. Every single valve was bent. His was a 4-cylinder. Things may not have been as bad, except that he kept cranking his engine, trying to get it to start.
For everyone else, the thing is to replace the timing belts at the scheduled intervals. In the event it breaks, shut the engine down and do not try to start it.
I don't know about your engine, but some engines have valves at an angle to the pistons, which causes lots of damage in these situations. Either way, you may have valve guides/seals that need to be replaced, along with the valves.
Yeah... these valves are at an angle. Kind of a pentroof chamber design. Guy at the machine shop said I would likely have some damaged guides. I only cranked it a few times, until I figured out what happened. But when it quit on Tammy, she coasted ~100 yards before she found a safe place to pull off the road. So... it 'tis what it 'tis....
Yeah... 80 K. We have a good friend with an Odyssey who has nearly 200K on the original belt. I told her, "Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Go get that #%@#! belt changed."
I'm not a expert on the Honda V6 but I would think if you pulled the valve cover and either removed the cam's or rocker assemble's then all valves would close and you could do compression to see which cylinders if any are bent.
Given that, other than the timing belts, the Honda V6's are darn near bullet proof you may just want to consider swapping the motor. I changed a belt on a 2003 Accord in may with ~170,000 miles on it. I am suprised that a belt failed so soon after the 105k service interval. Going on 278,000 miles and still a strong car/motor.
and no only the fully open valves could be bent when the belt breaks so only the valves fully on the cam being open are the ones to suspect a quick look should show once the valve covers are off
I'd thought about replacing the motor, but a <50K JDM engine is ~$1400, around here. And I don't really have the space (or the experience) do do a cradle drop on a Honda minivan. It's not a Fiero, after all. I can get both heads rebuilt and get the timing stuff for about half that. And I'm certainly not going to swap in another motor without doing the belt, so that's another chunk...
and no only the fully open valves could be bent when the belt breaks so only the valves fully on the cam being open are the ones to suspect a quick look should show once the valve covers are off
Hmmmm........ not quite true. Even if the belt breaks at a 700 RPM idle, the engine won't stop instantly. (at that speed, the cams are still turning 5.8 revolutions per second) Any valve could have been struck by a piston as the engine quit rotating. It only takes a little to bend the valves on this engine, and it might not be noticeable on a visual inspection. If it was mine, I'd replace the timing belt and then do a compression check on each cylinder. You may get lucky and only have to remove one head. Or, go ahead and pull both heads and get them checked. If the engine was not an oil burner, the bottom end should be just fine. This guy has some great videos. https://www.youtube.com/wat...-jfErzPrpGr3pfxesm2m
------------------ Rod Schneider, Ball Ground, Ga. "You can't have too many toys!" 1988 Fiero GT 1988 Porsche 928S4 1987 Corvette 2016 Mustang EcoBoost Van's RV-6 airplane
Well... I see why the shops estimate a grand to replace the timing belt.
A friend of ours owns an identical van to ours. They were pushing 275K on the original timing belt. There's no way in hell they could afford another vehicle (or a belt and valve job) if theirs broke. So I told her to bring it over and I'd do the belt. A very good learning experience, but a huge pain in the ass. (Thanks again for the link to the video. It was invaluable.)
Ours? I plan to fix it, at some point. But we got another van a couple of weeks ago, since we didn't have the time to wait for me to finish the repairs on ours.
Two words that can fix it for you, Steve. Northlake Automotive
I already talked with him. He really doesn't want to take on the job, since everything is so "up in the air". (That's actually where I had AAA tow it, from Gainesville, where it broke. I still have to retrieve it, and get it home. He said it's not in the way. I hope it still isn't.)
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 09-22-2018).]
One more question... Obviously, at least one set of valves has been damaged. What I'd like to do is put a timing belt on, and then see what's what. (Compression test, etc.) In order to do that, I've got to get the cams back to TDC. Obviously I don't want to bend anything else, doing that. Is there any crankshaft position where none of the pistons will be at TDC? Since it's a six cylinder, I'm thinking that TDC occurs every 60 degrees of crank rotation. 30 crank degrees after TDC sounds reasonable. (And yeah... only every other "TDC" event is a compression stroke. I got that.)
Is my logic sound? Someone please check me on this.
Thanks!
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-07-2018).]
Although I cannot speak to your exact engine, I can tell you that on interference engines with the crank on it’s mark the pistons will all be down in the bores. This is to ensure no valve contact when you change the timing belt.
Although I cannot speak to your exact engine, I can tell you that on interference engines with the crank on it’s mark the pistons will all be down in the bores. This is to ensure no valve contact when you change the timing belt.
On this engine, #1 TDC has the #1 piston all the way up in the bore. Obviously the valves for #1 are closed, however. With that said, I understand that there is a 2nd mark on the Honda crank gear. That might be the mark you are referring to. Hmmmm...
What I refer to is that when you remove the timing belt the cam can still move because some cam lobes are under pressure from some valve springs. So if you are truly at TDC and the cam moves you can get valve to piston contact. This is avoided with a cam locking tool of course. But I really haven't changed the belt on a V6, only a 1.6L four banger Honda.
Why do you say "Obviously, at least one set of valves has been damaged" I'll give you that the likelihood is there is a bent valve.
Go on ebay/amazon and buy a borescope camera that works on your phone (either mini USD or bluetooth, about $8 to $25). The borescopes are cheap and also handy for all type of projects.
Then I pull off the upper cam covers and pull the spark plugs. Run the borescope down and check out the tops of your pistons. If all look clean then I'd put a sock on the crank so it doesn't move, hook up an air compressor line into the spark plug holes and do a leak down test, I would suggest rotating the cams by hand to find when both values are closed. By rotating the cams gently by hand I don't think you would have enough force to manually bend a valve...if you feel contact, stop and go the opposite way. Doing a leak down test by hand should give you a good indication if valves have been bent.
Doing the above will directionaly tell you if pull the head(s) or of you just try to put on a new timing belt kit. Just my opinion.
Why do you say "Obviously, at least one set of valves has been damaged" .
It's an interference engine. When it lost power. it coasted for several hundred feet, while my wife looked for a safe place to get off the road and out of traffic.
At least one set of valves had to have been open. Several hundred feet is ample opportunity for at least one piston to kiss a set of valves.
And yes... The cams do tend to jump, when they're parked at TDC. We have a friend who has the same van, which was pushing 275K on the original belt. I told her to bring it over and let me do it, before she scrapped THAT one. I had a lot of fun getting the rear cam to stay right on TDC. It kept wanting to jump about 30 degrees. I found out, after doing some research, that that's pretty normal. Of course I didn't have the holding tool.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-11-2018).]
Update. Finally got the van back here a few days ago. Got around to doing the timing belt today. Started it up, and of course it clatters like hell, so something's bent. Going to do a compression test on it tomorrow, and see what's what. With a little bit of good luck, I'll only have to have one head reworked. We shall see. (If it's even a little bit questionable, I'll just yank 'em both. I'm not in a hurry to do this again any time soon.)
This timing belt went on much more easily than the one I did for our friends, so there's something to be said for experience.
Deb down at 214 has one, damn thing has a mis-fire that only happens at highway speeds. Think I can track it down ?
Not a chance.
In a Fiero it means a new ignition module, new wires and change the plugs. No need for a new distributor cap, or rotor a little sandpaper and it works just fine.
Honda's ??? damned if I can solve it....and really, I dont feel like crawling under a hood at 120KPH..I'm dumb, not stupid
Deb down at 214 has one, damn thing has a mis-fire that only happens at highway speeds. Think I can track it down ?
Not a chance.
Is it setting a code? OBD2 will tell you which cylinder is causing the misfire. (P0302 = cylinder 2. P0304 = cylinder 4, etc.) Try swapping coils (easiest), sparkplugs, or injectors (a bit more involved). If it follows either, you've found your culprit. If not, it might be a valvetrain issue or something else strange.
Is it setting a code? OBD2 will tell you which cylinder is causing the misfire. (P0302 = cylinder 2. P0304 = cylinder 4, etc.) Try swapping coils (easiest), sparkplugs, or injectors (a bit more involved). If it follows either, you've found your culprit. If not, it might be a valvetrain issue or something else strange.
Thanks dude.
Already did the simple stuff and that all checks out OK. This has been going on for 8 months now. I got the spare keys to it and probably tomorrw night I'll take it out on the 401 and open it up to see what it is actually doing now.
Last time I tried that it was a dead spot right at 118kph..117 or 119 it ran just fine, hit 118 and it is dead silent.
I'm thinking the ECM is funky, but I aint no Honda mechanic. Tried working on thier bikes at one time, and got pitched over the handlebars for my efforts. Orange man is not bad. Shaft-drive motorcycles, THOSE are bad.
Yet another update... Two cylinders have low compression. Most are running 210 -220. The two weak cylinders are running around 115.
The good news is that both of the low cylinders are in the same head. The better news is that they're in the front head. The easy one to get to. I've been taking stuff off all afternoon. Pretty much all I have left to do is remove one stubborn water manifold, crank the engine around to TDC, pull off the timing belt, and pull the head. Local machine shop says turnaround time is ~two days.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 03-03-2019).]
Of course it's never as easy as it seems. Once I pulled the upper intake, I decided to pressurize the cylinders to make sure everything was sealed. Of course I heard leakage from the center cylinder. Dropped both heads off at the shop this afternoon.
...and it's alive. $370 worth of head work (and six bent intake valves) later. Finally got it all screwed back together, this afternoon. Sounds like a sewing machine (as all Hondas seem to.)
I've followed but not commented on this thread because I am not qualified to speak intelligently on this engine.
But, I do have a question. Are all 3.5 Honda V6s interference engines? Or has Honda corrected that design error and if so, what year? I ask this because the spousal unit just got a Honda Ridgeline with a 3.5 V6.
I've followed but not commented on this thread because I am not qualified to speak intelligently on this engine.
But, I do have a question. Are all 3.5 Honda V6s interference engines? Or has Honda corrected that design error and if so, what year? I ask this because the spousal unit just got a Honda Ridgeline with a 3.5 V6.
Rams
According to several lists of interference engines I found online, yes, all Honda 3.5's are interference engines.....
------------------ Rod Schneider, Ball Ground, Ga. "You can't have too many toys!" 1988 Fiero GT 1988 Porsche 928S4 1987 Corvette 2016 Mustang EcoBoost Van's RV-6 airplane
According to several lists of interference engines I found online, yes, all Honda 3.5's are interference engines.....
True story. From what I can tell, the only Honda V6 that is not an interference engine is the 3.2 (IIRC).
(Subliminal message... Get your timing belt replaced when recommended.) Ours was only slightly over the interval for the second change, at 215K. OTOH, my wife's best friend has the same van, and ran it to 280K on the original belt. After Tammy's fragged, I told Kristie (her friend) to bring it to me immediately, and let me change it. It was also good training for ours.
True story. From what I can tell, the only Honda V6 that is not an interference engine is the 3.2 (IIRC).
(Subliminal message... Get your timing belt replaced when recommended.) Ours was only slightly over the interval for the second change, at 215K. OTOH, my wife's best friend has the same van, and ran it to 280K on the original belt. After Tammy's fragged, I told Kristie (her friend) to bring it to me immediately, and let me change it. It was also good training for ours.
Steve, I don't believe I have your current address so I can plan more re-enforcement training. Surely a Ridgeline 3.5L is no different than what you previously trained on.
FYI if you have a Ridgeline, with the honda 4 speed auto) don't forget transmission fluid changes. We had the transmission on our 02' Accord let do at 170,000; lucky the second timing belt lasted 167k nad we haven't had any problems. While Honda's are generally driving appliances, they still require regular maintenance.
FYI if you have a Ridgeline, with the honda 4 speed auto) don't forget transmission fluid changes. We had the transmission on our 02' Accord let do at 170,000; lucky the second timing belt lasted 167k nad we haven't had any problems. While Honda's are generally driving appliances, they still require regular maintenance.
Our local dealer does all fluid changes for 100,000 miles free. Unfortunately, we won't be here long enough to take advantage of that very many times. Our warranty covers (all?) drivetrain issues and fluid changes but if done at any other dealership costs me $100.00. I haven't had an opportunity to check on whether or not the timing belt falls within that drivetrain warranty but, I believe it would not be covered. Will check soon.
I honestly dont know why ANYBODY would buy anything besides a Ford truck.
Seriously. in 30 years I have had a thermostat blow. I've had a tailgate hinge rust off. The F-100 needed new king pins.
Thats it. Total cost is less than 2 grand over all those years, and I usually sell them for MORE than I got in them.
And I treat my trucks like crap. Ride them hard then put them away wet.
It might suck gas like crazy, but its a workhorse that just doent quit.
(oh, and yeah, I am opinionated about it. Freakn Chevs have left me stranded more times than I can count)
I owned a Ford pickup once. I drove it twice and sold it. (true story) I have driven plenty of Fords, from small cars to class 8 tractors. I am not a fan.
This morning I'm still going to get some work and groceries...and that Dodge owner on 7th ??
He was still scratching his balls and waiting for a tow.
SEE YA !!
Not to suggest there is a perfect vehicle but, I've been towing/transporting//hauling other vehicles for years with Cummins powered Dodges. Say what you will but, Cummins is the best engine on the road. Many transports were broken fords.
Rams.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-07-2019).]
